Charlie range

darekelec

Senior Member
Location
nyc
Brilliant idea. Especially for coop high rises.
What you think ?
5kW 30” range with battery that plugs in to 120v receptacle
It’s like an electric car but a kitchen range. :)

 
How long does it take to charge?
120 volts times 12 amps is 1.44kw. It would take about 3-1/2 hours to fully charge a battery to 5kwh.

I need to do more math to figure out how long 5kwh can keep the unit running at full load, given that it will be receiving input power at the same time.

NOTE 1: Edited to correct math.
NOTE 2: Everyone please feel free to challenge me if you think my math is wrong.
 
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From what I just read (a very quick read, I'll admit), an induction cooktop with four burners can draw 3 or more kw. Let's call it 3.2 for easy math. The 120v receptacle will supply 1.2kw, leaving the battery to make up the remaining 2kw. Thus, the 5kwh battery will be depleted in about 2.5 hours.

Is that a problem? Well, who runs all cooktop burners on high for hours on end? Unless you are canning fruit, it is unlikely.
 
Will it cook my Turkey day dinner the day of?
Please note that the oven is not an induction heating device. It is heated by one or more electrical resistance heating coils, just like any other electrical oven, whether or not the cooktop uses induction heating. That oven will not be powered by a 120 volt receptacle, but rather by a 240 volt dedicated circuit of 40 amps or higher.

I didn't see any mention of this "additional" power source requirement on the company's web site.
 
Wonder how long it would take to recoup the $6K cost of the stove?
I believe it will never happen.

For starters, you would only need to recoup the difference between the $6000 price of this item and the price of whatever else you consider buying. Unless your other option is a professional grade unit, such as a $8000+ Viking unit, you are likely to find a very acceptable unit under $2000. So then, how long will it take to recoup the additional $4000? At 16 cents per kwh (a representative, average number in Illinois), you would need to save 25,000 kwh.

Here's the essence of the situation: the amount of energy (in units of kwh) it takes to boil a pot of water is the same, no matter what energy source you are using (i.e., gas versus electric, but let's stick with electric for now) or the method used to cause the pot to get hot (i.e., electric coils versus induction). It's all about the amount of energy absorbed by the water, water that is unaware of where the heat comes from. The difference boils (pun intended, with no apologies) down to the efficiency with which the source converts electrical current to heat.

Induction heating is more efficient than electrical coil heating, but by how much? Suppose it is 50% more efficient (I think that is way too generous). So if coils will use 25,000 kwh to do their job over some period of time, induction can do the same job for only 12,500 kwh. Looking back at post #8, and not considering all burners running at maximum, let's say you are using 1kw on average, while using on an induction cooktop. If you use the cooktop for 4 hours a day (that too is a bit generous), equating to 4 kwh a day, it would take you over 3,125 days (just over 8 years) to save a total of 12,500 kwh.

Realistically, I would estimate the time to recoup the extra $4000 to be more like 15 years. And if your chosen unit cost under $1500, the recoup time would be much longer.
 
This range will never save money by saving electricity. I'd expect it to use more kWh than the alternative.

The savings is in installation costs if you are in a situation where you need to otherwise spend lots of $$ to run a full sized range circuit.

If you are in an old building were adding a 40A range circuit might involve coordination across multiple tenants and upgrades to the building service, then the battery approach might be cheaper to install than a normal range.

In my house, not so much. I already have a gas range and a 50A circuit to the kitchen.
 
Please note that the oven is not an induction heating device. It is heated by one or more electrical resistance heating coils, just like any other electrical oven, whether or not the cooktop uses induction heating. That oven will not be powered by a 120 volt receptacle, but rather by a 240 volt dedicated circuit of 40 amps or higher.
I don't believe the last sentence is correct. As far as I can see from the installation video (the installation manual doesn't seem to be downloadable without filling out a form), the only electrical connection a NEMA 5-15 plug. The battery will run the oven, and the 120V 15A circuit will recharge the battery.

Cheers, Wayne
 
120 volts times 12 amps is 1.2kw. It would take 4 hours and 10 minutes to fully charge a battery to 5kwh.

I need to do more math to figure out how long 5kwh can keep the unit running at full load, given that it will be receiving input power at the same time.
We have "Charlie's Rule" now we have "Charlie's Range"
What's next?
 
Seriously: If the battery is suitably contained (and ranges are typically designed to contain fire), this shouldn't be a problem.
Ever see one of those scooter batteries burn up? It's always somebody brought it into the hallway or their apartment to charge and the whole building burns down. Ain't no way to contain a lithium-ion battery fire and difficult to extinguish. That's why many places outlaw large ones inside. Some parking garages only allow EVs around the outside so they can scoop them up with a loader and throw them overboard if they burn.

-Hal
 
Most older high rises have 40-60 amp feeders with no option to upgrade.
Many rental multifamily building have to undergo (and fail) gas pressure test after couple of buildings exploded .

This range is for these applications
 
Any fire can be contained. Even lithium-ion battery fires. The question is: will the manufacturer spend the money and add the weight for suitable containment. Clearly the answer for the scooter batteries is no.

A 5kWh battery in thermal runaway will rapidly release the same amount of energy as burning a couple of ounces of hydrocarbon fuel. This can absolutely be contained, though such containment might easily be the heaviest part of such a battery powered range.
 
Per https://copperhome.com/pages/faq

The battery is lithium iron phosphate (safer but lower power density than lithium ion systems) and the range passed the UL 9540a test (for BESS systems) and contained the thermal runaway.

I note that the above doesn't give details of the test results, and the 9540a test might provide risk mitigation data rather than a 'safe vs not safe' result.
 
Ever see one of those scooter batteries burn up? It's always somebody brought it into the hallway or their apartment to charge and the whole building burns down. Ain't no way to contain a lithium-ion battery fire and difficult to extinguish. That's why many places outlaw large ones inside. Some parking garages only allow EVs around the outside so they can scoop them up with a loader and throw them overboard if they burn.

-Hal
There’s a very wide range when it comes the quality of battery manufacturing. Scooters are at the very bottom.
 
I don't believe the last sentence is correct. As far as I can see from the installation video . . . the
battery will run the oven, and the 120V 15A circuit will recharge the battery.
I can't argue, but it still seems counter-intuitive. I must now note that we are told the battery's energy storage capacity, but not its maximum current (or equivalently, its max power level).
 
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