Checking my troubleshooting skills with the pro's

[zappy]

I went to a job to see why the light over there sink and the light over the toilet and outlet and fart fan wasn't working.house is about 30 years old.So i'm thinking gfci.I open the panel in the garage check the connections,check the voltage,checked the breakers for voltage,turned all the breakers off and on.there was one 20amp gfci breaker,and two gfci outlets outside,all where fine.The gfci breaker was protecting the one gfci outlet outside but nothing else.So i opened up the gfci outlets to see if anything was loose and to see if they were protecting anything else they weren't,just line in.Checked switches and the outlet no power in the boxes.So i connected my "Progressive Electronics Tracer 2 model # 77hp" red to the hot on the outlet and black to the ground.Took my "200ep inductive amplifier" waved it over the switches that were dead got a loud sound,so i wave it around any outlet or switch that was live got no sound.I checked everywhere even in the attic nothing,but i did find big rat traps.I waved it over the sheetrock around outlets and switches nothing.I tried to find a hidden gfci somewhere nothing.I opened up outlets & switches that were live and near the problem nothing.Needless to say i didn't find the problem after 2-1/2hrs the customer said no more.Is this tool i'm using suck?What do you recommend i could have done differently.Thanks for your help.

 

[ultramegabob]

are you sure you dont have power to the bathroom? did you check for continuity between ground and neutral? my next step would be to go around opening devices looking for loose/burnt connections, were the devices that you opened backstabbed? (big red flag to start opening everything everywhere)

 

[electricalperson]

well sometimes it takes a little longer to find a problem. im sure you would of found it if the customer didnt kick you out . i use the greenlee circuit tracer and it seems to work alright. i never really use a tracer to find wires in walls i just use it to find breakers.

it is possible to have a broken wire inside of the wall too. i actually had that problem before. must of been a screw or whatever through the wire and it finially broke free.

maybe the feed inside the box came from a light that you didnt check? those older houses are sometimes wired weird

those inductive probes sometimes need to actually touch the wire to give off a sound. i wouldnt trust a tester i would do it the old fashoned way and open the box and actually look

 

[electricalperson]

are you sure you dont have power to the bathroom? did you check for continuity between ground and neutral? my next step would be to go around opening devices looking for loose/burnt connections, were the devices that you opened backstabbed? (big red flag to start opening everything everywhere)

i was about to say check backstabbed devices but thought he already did that by checking receptacles. that feed can come from anywhere and thats probably what it is.

 

[ctmike]

I would not assume that because its in a bathroom its gfci. I would tend to look at the lighting circuits between the pannel and the bathroom. how was the house wired did they carry feed through lightghting outlets. look at what does work , how it was wired and somtimes you can get an idea of what the guy who wired it would have done

 

[220/221]

Troubleshooting just take experience. You need to know the various wiring methods used in different eras and locations and you need to have an eye for remodels /renovations and things that may have been added over the years.

30 years ago, the recep in the bathrom would have been GFCI protected, maybe by a breaker. The circuit would have likely gone to the other bathroom and the outside receps.

In my area, the lights and exhaust fan would be on a different circuit from the recep, not protected by GFCI.

The circuit in question may not be GFCI protected or you may have two issues.

Start by finding out what else is on the circuit. The problem could be a simple loose wire in the recep or switch before the bathroom.

 

[triplstep]

This happened to me, just once I found a gfci in a walk in closet buried by some full length garments. It took me the better part of a half of a day, opening boxes, checking the panel, walking in circles, and scratching my head. Keep looking

 

[cadpoint]

Apply something to every recp., turn on all lights thats on that circuit around that circuit and QA and isolate otherwise....

 

[kwired]

you did not mention if you checked voltage at the switch(es) or the loads involved, you just mentioned that you assumed tripped GFCI. You need to verify voltage and / or continuity of the neutral. If you lost both hot and neutral then GFCI tripped is a good possibility. From what you have mentioned you could possibly be looking for a lost neutral.

sorry I guess you did say you checked voltage - but did not say if you checked the conductors of the affected circuit only or from the affected to a known working reference.

 

[bpk]

many of the older houses that I have worked in they take the homerun to light boxes first, that could possibly be a place to check for power.

 

[ultramegabob]

my guess is the problem is in the recept. that is behind the largest heaviest knick knack cabinet full of about 300 porcelin or christal doo-hickeys. or possibly behind a wall to wall built in entertainment center full of audio equipment and a complete set of Encyclopedia Britannica..

 

[Greg Swartz]

Troubleshooting just take experience. You need to know the various wiring methods used in different eras and locations and you need to have an eye for remodels /renovations and things that may have been added over the years...

That is a very good statement.

Here in Colorado Springs, houses built in the 60s have conduit everywhere, most have FPE panels.
Houses in the 70s have the black NM, some have FPEs, most have GE or Square D QOs...

Knowing your history can help save you time!

Sorry about the HO... I've had the same problem before too...

 

[cadpoint]

OK, I wasn't going to install the little triangle when trimming out in an Engineers office.




Road Trip.

 

[220/221]

I found a gfci in a walk in closet buried by some full length garments.

Mine, several years ago, was behind a mirror.

An hour and a half that I'll never get back. Now I look everywhere.

 

[quogueelectric]

I went to a job to see why the light over there sink and the light over the toilet and outlet and fart fan wasn't working.house is about 30 years old.So i'm thinking gfci.I open the panel in the garage check the connections,check the voltage,checked the breakers for voltage,turned all the breakers off and on.there was one 20amp gfci breaker,and two gfci outlets outside,all where fine.The gfci breaker was protecting the one gfci outlet outside but nothing else.So i opened up the gfci outlets to see if anything was loose and to see if they were protecting anything else they weren't,just line in.Checked switches and the outlet no power in the boxes.So i connected my "Progressive Electronics Tracer 2 model # 77hp" red to the hot on the outlet and black to the ground.Took my "200ep inductive amplifier" waved it over the switches that were dead got a loud sound,so i wave it around any outlet or switch that was live got no sound.I checked everywhere even in the attic nothing,but i did find big rat traps.I waved it over the sheetrock around outlets and switches nothing.I tried to find a hidden gfci somewhere nothing.I opened up outlets & switches that were live and near the problem nothing.Needless to say i didn't find the problem after 2-1/2hrs the customer said no more.Is this tool i'm using suck?What do you recommend i could have done differently.Thanks for your help.

The first thing is I would have tested and rang the wires to ground to see what was was connected to ground.

It would have let me know if the neutral was disconnected that most likely it is the load side of a tripped gfci somewhere. At the risk of repeating myself I have an amprobe 2005 tracer and it works great.

Any tracer will send you on wild goose chases but this one is the best imho. An almost identical situation was found by me to be an outside deck gfci receptacle. It still took a long couple of hours to find and I was the second electrician there the first one had been thrown out.

Ho was on me like stink on a monkey the whole time.

 

[satcom]

Troubleshooting just take experience. You need to know the various wiring methods used in different eras and locations and you need to have an eye for remodels /renovations and things that may have been added over the years.

30 years ago, the recep in the bathrom would have been GFCI protected, maybe by a breaker. The circuit would have likely gone to the other bathroom and the outside receps.

In my area, the lights and exhaust fan would be on a different circuit from the recep, not protected by GFCI.

The circuit in question may not be GFCI protected or you may have two issues.

Start by finding out what else is on the circuit. The problem could be a simple loose wire in the recep or switch before the bathroom.

Some good points, I also look for opens, and boot leg circuits, in older homes, that may of had some DIY work.

 

[Greg Swartz]

An almost identical situation was found by me to be an outside deck gfci receptacle. It still took a long couple of hours to find and I was the second electrician there the first one had been thrown out...

I've had that happen. I was electrician #3...

Ho was on me like stink on a monkey the whole time.

I can honestly say that I have never heard that before, nor have I ever contemplated it...

 

[zappy]

Thanks for all the advice!

Thanks for all the advice!

I didn't check the two light fixture boxes because i saw the power was in the switch boxes,it didn't look like a back-feed.I didn't check any boxes in the ceiling.There were back stab outlets so that got my attention,and i started to check outlets near by and switches,but i didn't open every outlet and switch in the house just the one's that made sense to look in.When i went in the attic i checked every wire i saw with the tool i discribed.I had pretty good result with this tool before,sometimes it gives you false readings.I was thinking plug in a radio in the dead outlet,then go to every outlet and wiggle them?I did get a sound under there sink with my amplifier but they had alot of stuff down there plus i figured why would a outlet be down there?Plus i found out the homeowner has been changing outlets and switches himself.I found one switch he put in the wire came right out of the screw.It doesn't look good when you give them the bill and you didn't fix the problem yet.I almost wanted to keep looking for free just because i wanted to find it!!

 

[LarryFine]

1. Try the extension-cord and solenoid-tester method. An open grounded conductor is just as possible as an open hot conductor. Knowing which helps.

2. If there's a garage, look for one more GFCI receptacle. As mentioned, if both hot and grounded are missing, it's a tripped GFCI or a severed cable.

 

[billsnuff]

just thinking out loud.......

just thinking out loud.......

i did find big rat traps

if both hot and grounded are missing, it's a tripped GFCI or a severed cable

When is the last time they had to reset the GFCI?

Did they reset it and it hasn't worked since?

Any evidence of rodent activity?

Gathering info from the HO is a troubleshooting step.....good luck!