China and Russia penetrate US power grid

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This doesn't do much for easing tensions. Does make a person wonder why? Curiousity alone I don't buy. It may be insurance to stop our interferance in their goals in Eastern Europe (Russia) or Taiwan (China). So many possible reasons why.

Now if the US was suspected of doing this to either of them they'd be screaming for our heads. Why aren't we as eagarly offended?

I didn't see much about steps being done to improve the security of the US power grid. I hope this gets the right people scared.
 
how the heck are they gona hack the grid lol, what are they gonna do open a bunch of breakers? You'd have to at least take out the source to cause even minor damage, like a power plant. They'd have to invade us for that. I see this as a non issue just someone trying to create news.
 
Designer 69:
Go back through news archives.
The government conducted an experiment two years ago in Idaho in which a hacker was able to gain access to a generator, put it into a state of overspeed, override the safety valves and cause the generator to self destruct, all from a couple of thousand miles away using only a keyboard.
See the video:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/26/power.at.risk/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
 
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Designer69 said:
how the heck are they gona hack the grid lol, what are they gonna do open a bunch of breakers? You'd have to at least take out the source to cause even minor damage, like a power plant. They'd have to invade us for that. I see this as a non issue just someone trying to create news.
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There can be much more done than just to open a couple of breakers, especially as the grid is being made 'smarter'.

The worst assumption one can make when they think that they are smarter than the enemy. Lao Tzu - I let you guess what nationality he was - some centuries ago wrote a treatise on warfare that is compulsory reading for advanced(colonels and up) students of military strategy. Deceiving the enemy by acting dumb is one of the favored.

This is just my opinion, but I am not alone: the current economic situation is nothing else but warfare fought on the financial front.
 
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Designer69 said:
how the heck are they gona hack the grid lol, what are they gonna do open a bunch of breakers? You'd have to at least take out the source to cause even minor damage, like a power plant. They'd have to invade us for that. I see this as a non issue just someone trying to create news.
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Or they open them all. Do you have any idea how long a nationwide power grid restoration would take???? Do you undrstand what would happen to our country during those days, weeks?
 
Designer69 said:
how the heck are they gona hack the grid lol, what are they gonna do open a bunch of breakers? You'd have to at least take out the source to cause even minor damage, like a power plant. They'd have to invade us for that. I see this as a non issue just someone trying to create news.
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I totally agree. I heard this on the radio today and the "expert" they hired to be the talking head for this story was (surprise!) the CEO of a company that sells industrial cyber security systems. Yeah, right...

I was have been involved in Utility relaying systems a while back and although the newer digital relays are technically now capable of being networked and thus "hacked" by someone, there is almost no damage that could be done to the system hardware itself. Worst case scenario is a localized temporary blackout by having relays trip. But after what happened in the North East a few years back, the "grid" has been updated to help prevent a cascading regional failure such as that. Besides, the utility system in this country is so fractured that very few of them use the same network system as their next door neighbor, so even if you had the unlimited cyber resources to crack one security protocol, all you could do with it is annoy a lot of people for a few hours.
 
Scada

Scada

I also listened to a radio talk show where the caller mentioned that the grid uses the lines for the remote monitoring and control functions in the overall main security control system. The SCADA is basically like a Power line carrier configuration. What the news articles are not mentioning is that the US technology is sold throughout the world with consumers in China and Russia. Knowing the codes would be a monumental challenge to decipher or intercept. Mapping the grid is only a fraction of what computer hackers must overcome. I wouldn't lose any sleep over the news hype. The grid encryption embedding for TV and other communication methodology has been approved by the Feds earlier this year so data mining is definitely going to be a hackers heaven. rbj
 
Designer69 said:
how the heck are they gona hack the grid lol, what are they gonna do open a bunch of breakers? You'd have to at least take out the source to cause even minor damage, like a power plant. They'd have to invade us for that. I see this as a non issue just someone trying to create news.
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Yeah , open a bunch of breakers . Exactly what happened in the North East a while back . Do that in a couple of key places in the system , and you bring this country to a screeching halt in short order .

Here's a scenario for you . Open the tie point for a nuclear plant . Obviously it trips offline . Now , it's no longer supplying it's own aux . power , so it's relying on offsite power . Trip the breakers feeding the substation that supplies offsite power . Now what do you have ? ALL of the safety systems
are now running on diesel generators . Ask anybody in the nuclear world how scary that is .
 
the biggest threat to the utility companies is antique and outdated scada systems. I don't think it does anyone any good to discuss this openly online, but I do know one thing: I had a server online from 2000 to 2007 and for the last couple years it amazed me how much attempted hacking was performed from chinese, bulgarian, and romanian, and Indian IP addresses. At one point I used to log all attempts and block them, but eventually I just took IP ranges of entire geographical areas (no one from Asia, Russia, or the east needed to access my computer) and blocked them. IMO there is way too much information needlessly exposed to the internet by gov and private companies, and there is no doubt in my mind that the cyberthreat is real, as proven by the many successful hacks of credit card companies. It is only a matter of time, and unfortunately the resources available to lock down many facilities has not been brought to bear on the problems and vulnerabilities that have yet to be exposed. (IMHO)
 
China And Russia penetrate US power grid

China And Russia penetrate US power grid

Actually Lazlo said it best earlier in this thread in regards to where the biggest threat is to our country these days..,and to it remaining our country.Its not the power grid operation.It's not even a literal military threat.
No shots will ever need to be fired.
We've been selling our country financially to the highest bidder for our treasuries for many years now.
Add to that the purchase and operation of our utilities/power suppliers and grids both-such as the National Grid deals in the northeast,and foriegn ownership of our resources and..., well all you need is for someone to call in their bet...,call our bluff if we should choose to make one..,and the game is over.
Actually the thing protecting us and others these days from our large neighbors is not military might but economic survival-everyone owns so much of us that like Goldman sachs or certain banks they can't afford to have us fail so they can't afford to call their bets.
But this is an electrical forum--who sent me on this political rant anyway?
P.S.- That'll teach me to reply to the forum and watch CNBC at the same time.Sorry.
 
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weressl said:
Lao Tzu - I let you guess what nationality he was - some centuries ago wrote a treatise on warfare that is compulsory reading for advanced(colonels and up) students of military strategy.QUOTE]

Are you referring to The Art of War by Sun Tzu? I believe Lao Tzu was a Taoist philosopher from way back when.

I read Art of War in college for some Lit class - it was pretty interesting. Very lucid and sensible in its context. It's interesting to see centuries of iterations on the concepts of war Sun Tzu laid out. Twenty-first century warfare is high tech but fundamentally similar to warfare of yore.

Having the power grid hacked into sucks, but that's why we have NEC Article 700 :D
Click to expand...
 
weressl said:
There can be much more done than just to open a couple of breakers, especially as the grid is being made 'smarter'.

The worst assumption one can make when they think that they are smarter than the enemy. Lao Tzu - I let you guess what nationality he was - some centuries ago wrote a treatise on warfare that is compulsory reading for advanced(colonels and up) students of military strategy. Deceiving the enemy by acting dumb is one of the favored.

This is just my opinion, but I am not alone: the current economic situation is nothing else but warfare fought on the financial front.
Click to expand...

Are you referring to The Art of War by Sun Tzu? I believe Lao Tzu was a Taoist philosopher from way back when.

I read Art of War in college for some Lit class - it was pretty interesting. Very lucid and sensible in its context. It's interesting to see centuries of iterations on the concepts of war Sun Tzu laid out. Twenty-first century warfare is high tech but fundamentally similar to warfare of yore.

Having the power grid hacked into sucks, but that's why we have NEC Article 700 :D
 
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