Church Buildings

[jmellc]

Our church building was built in 2004. Over the years, it has been reinvented countless times in every possible way. I & others have added lights, receptacles, moved conduits, lights, etc.
I think a great thing for churches would be to follow the 12 foot rule in every room, though not required by code. This would allow for a lot of changes without having to do so much rewiring.
Kitchens should be wired with as many circuits as possible. Countertop receptacles ideally should be 1 per circuit. Sounds like overkill but I have seen dinner & breakfast meetings where all kitchen circuits were tripping from waffle irons, electric frypans & coffee urns. A spare conduit & box to kitchen is a good idea too. Same for stage areas. Constantly changing needs, often on short notice.
Also; find the key tech people when doing a job at any church. I did a stage area for my church & had our lighting guy call me halfway through. He had just heard about it & wanted to have input. I walked the area with him & saw that he had the right ideas. I got approval to do things his way. That stage is good for 30 years to come. Conduits everywhere to route cables wherever needed, keeping floor clear. I started calling him on every job there. Guys like him are great about planning well into the future and saving work along the way.

 

[drcampbell]

The first time I laid eyes on the plans for a fast food joint, it was staggering.

First, the level of organization and advance planning. Each kitchen appliance was called out in an equipment list, along with its power needs. Many of them required 208 and/or three-phase, and each one had its own countertop-space allocation and dedicated circuit. (If I recall, there were four or five 42-space panels for 1000, maybe 2000 ft²)

Second, the power requirements. Oy! I thought I was looking at the estimate for a small city. Not only do commercial-kitchen appliances consume oodles of electric power, they convert all of it to heat and they install enough air-conditioning to pump all that heat outdoors. It's also common to locate the condensers for the walk-in refrigerator & freezer indoors and pump the heat out twice.

There's nothing fundamentally different between a church kitchen and a commercial kitchen, and ample precedent for designing kitchens that feed hundreds of people in a day. Likewise theaters, stages, indoor swimming pools, modern office space & classrooms, and everything else.
There's just a general reluctance to acknowledge that churches are commercial buildings, to spend the necessary money to do it right, or to make churches follow the rules.

 

[jmellc]

The first time I laid eyes on the plans for a fast food joint, it was staggering.

First, the level of organization and advance planning. Each kitchen appliance was called out in an equipment list, along with its power needs. Many of them required 208 and/or three-phase, and each one had its own countertop-space allocation and dedicated circuit. (If I recall, there were four or five 42-space panels for 1000, maybe 2000 ft²)

Second, the power requirements. Oy! I thought I was looking at the estimate for a small city. Not only do commercial-kitchen appliances consume oodles of electric power, they convert all of it to heat and they install enough air-conditioning to pump all that heat outdoors. It's also common to locate the condensers for the walk-in refrigerator & freezer indoors and pump the heat out twice.

There's nothing fundamentally different between a church kitchen and a commercial kitchen, and ample precedent for designing kitchens that feed hundreds of people in a day. Likewise theaters, stages, indoor swimming pools, modern office space & classrooms, and everything else.
There's just a general reluctance to acknowledge that churches are commercial buildings, to spend the necessary money to do it right, or to make churches follow the rules.

As far as 12 foot rule, no commercial buildings are held to that, just motel rooms as I recall. But a church would do itself a favor by 12 footing or putting plugmold along every room wall.

They don’t think about the kitchen issue as they don’t do commercial cooking 24/7. But a breakfast or dinner several times a year gets chaotic.

 

[James L]

The first time I laid eyes on the plans for a fast food joint, it was staggering.

First, the level of organization and advance planning. Each kitchen appliance was called out in an equipment list, along with its power needs. Many of them required 208 and/or three-phase, and each one had its own countertop-space allocation and dedicated circuit. (If I recall, there were four or five 42-space panels for 1000, maybe 2000 ft²)

Second, the power requirements. Oy! I thought I was looking at the estimate for a small city. Not only do commercial-kitchen appliances consume oodles of electric power, they convert all of it to heat and they install enough air-conditioning to pump all that heat outdoors. It's also common to locate the condensers for the walk-in refrigerator & freezer indoors and pump the heat out twice.

There's nothing fundamentally different between a church kitchen and a commercial kitchen, and ample precedent for designing kitchens that feed hundreds of people in a day. Likewise theaters, stages, indoor swimming pools, modern office space & classrooms, and everything else.
There's just a general reluctance to acknowledge that churches are commercial buildings, to spend the necessary money to do it right, or to make churches follow the rules.

What you accurately described about a Fast Food Kitchen, or really any other commercial kitchen, is fundamentally different from a church kitchen.

As you said, the commercial kitchen has a plan with everything laid out and every Appliance accounted for well in advance.

On the other hand, a church kitchen is a chameleon. Most times, there's no designated space for microwaves, 20 crock pots, for waffle makers, etc.

Appliances get moved around and spaces get re-designated in a church kitchen, depending on the function

One church I was at had to microwaves on the countertop, right next to each other. Then after a while they decided they needed that countertop space and they wanted to put the two microwaves on a single cart against the wall

 

[James L]

In a commercial kitchen, if there's no plan to follow I put two receptacles on one circuit. And I've never had a problem.

I wired a market/deli that has two full kitchens, and the owner is always changing stuff. When the architect drew it up, he had 2 countertop receptacles on each circuit, but alternated. Every other receptacle. That has worked really well

 

[drcampbell]

...
What you accurately described about a ... commercial kitchen, is fundamentally different from a church kitchen. ...

True. Let me try again:
There's nothing fundamentally different between the role of a church kitchen and the role of a commercial kitchen.

Yes, churches are chaotic and little forethought goes into them. But maybe they shouldn't be. (I think I'm repeating the original point)

 

[James L]

Yes, churches are chaotic and little forethought goes into them. But maybe they shouldn't be. (I think I'm repeating the original point)

I think it's impossible to have the kind of forethought that hoes into a commercial kitchen, when the space is used by residential users.

That's why the OP.
Churches need overkill

 

[hillbilly1]

When I wired Waffle Houses, they had a dedicated circuit for every receptacle on the back bar. They also do redundant appliances, so if one goes down, they are still able to operate.

 

[Hv&Lv]

I think it's impossible to have the kind of forethought that hoes into a commercial kitchen, when the space is used by residential users.

That's why the OP.
Churches need overkill

I agree with that...
I’ve had to babysit crock pots and move them around to get the breakers to quit tripping at ours.
Sometimes at a church kitchen it wouldn’t hurt to put every outlet on its own circuit and double the outlets

 

[James L]

I agree with that...
I’ve had to babysit crock pots and move them around to get the breakers to quit tripping at ours.
Sometimes at a church kitchen it wouldn’t hurt to put every outlet on its own circuit and double the outlets

Yeah, being the resident electrician at church means you're on call during potlucks

I agree with needing more outlets, too. 1 every 16" on countertops, and at least one 44-plex on each end of an island or peninsula.

 

[brantmacga]

The first time I laid eyes on the plans for a fast food joint, it was staggering.

First, the level of organization and advance planning. Each kitchen appliance was called out in an equipment list, along with its power needs. Many of them required 208 and/or three-phase, and each one had its own countertop-space allocation and dedicated circuit. (If I recall, there were four or five 42-space panels for 1000, maybe 2000 ft²)

Second, the power requirements. Oy! I thought I was looking at the estimate for a small city. Not only do commercial-kitchen appliances consume oodles of electric power, they convert all of it to heat and they install enough air-conditioning to pump all that heat outdoors. It's also common to locate the condensers for the walk-in refrigerator & freezer indoors and pump the heat out twice.

There's nothing fundamentally different between a church kitchen and a commercial kitchen, and ample precedent for designing kitchens that feed hundreds of people in a day. Likewise theaters, stages, indoor swimming pools, modern office space & classrooms, and everything else.
There's just a general reluctance to acknowledge that churches are commercial buildings, to spend the necessary money to do it right, or to make churches follow the rules.

That’s my bread and butter. In the restaurant I mostly work on, we’re up to six 42 circuit panelboards now just for the kitchen, and maybe 20 empty spaces left between all of them. That doesn’t include the lighting and general receptacle panels, or distribution board for the hvac equipment.


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[kwired]

Church kitchen - needs can vary. Depends if they actually cook in it or if it is mostly bringing in items already made elsewhere and you just need to keep it warm. still many the warming appliances need to be on an individual circuit or you will be tripping breakers. But this usually is effecting receptacles in a serving line area more than in other parts of the kitchen.

Church sanctuary areas - depends on common practices of the church. Many those that still practice "old school" worship services don't need a lot of receptacles. Some "modern" practices however have similar needs to a performing arts theater.

 

[grich]

Yeah, being the resident electrician at church means you're on call during potlucks

I agree with needing more outlets, too. 1 every 16" on countertops, and at least one 44-plex on each end of an island or peninsula.

44-plex is probably a typo, but maybe not. We had to add six 20A circuits to the serving line at our church to handle all of the roasters used for serving during our fish fry events.

 

[jim dungar]

44-plex is probably a typo, but maybe not. We had to add six 20A circuits to the serving line at our church to handle all of the roasters used for serving during our fish fry events.

Our fish fry uses 8 electric griddles, 4 roasters, 5 coffee urns, 1 microwave and 4 refrigerator cases for the 120V outlets. The bigger stuff is fixed in place. We average about 900 meals in 3 hours. Our best night was close to 1300 meals in 3-1/2 hours. Glad this only happens 6 Fridays each year.

 

[James L]

44-plex is probably a typo, but maybe not. We had to add six 20A circuits to the serving line at our church to handle all of the roasters used for serving during our fish fry events.

Church we used to be part of, they had potlucks with hot stuff on a serving/heating counter. It was enough for regular times, but once a year there's a chili cookoff. Everybody and their brother brings a crockpot full, and that serving counter is no match. Gotta set up tables against a wall and self-serve from there. It needed at least a half dozen circuits. Never happened while I was there

 

[grich]

Our fish fry uses 8 electric griddles, 4 roasters, 5 coffee urns, 1 microwave and 4 refrigerator cases for the 120V outlets. The bigger stuff is fixed in place. We average about 900 meals in 3 hours. Our best night was close to 1300 meals in 3-1/2 hours. Glad this only happens 6 Fridays each year.

Nice! We have 3 fish frys, every other week. About 500 a night, except this year, when we had to do a drive-through event. Still managed to serve 450 over 2 hours.

 

[jmellc]

Church kitchen - needs can vary. Depends if they actually cook in it or if it is mostly bringing in items already made elsewhere and you just need to keep it warm. still many the warming appliances need to be on an individual circuit or you will be tripping breakers. But this usually is effecting receptacles in a serving line area more than in other parts of the kitchen.

Church sanctuary areas - depends on common practices of the church. Many those that still practice "old school" worship services don't need a lot of receptacles. Some "modern" practices however have similar needs to a performing arts theater.

You never know. One event may be a few crockpots, next might be waffle irons, microwaves & coffee urns full blast. Placement depends on who gets there first.
I agree 2 receptacles per circuit would usually be good if panel space is limited. Ideally, kitchen should have its own panel close by.

I worked one church kitchen where they rent the fellowship hall for weddings, etc. Their kitchen had a commercial range hood with shunt trip breakers.

 

[kwired]

You never know. One event may be a few crockpots, next might be waffle irons, microwaves & coffee urns full blast. Placement depends on who gets there first.
I agree 2 receptacles per circuit would usually be good if panel space is limited. Ideally, kitchen should have its own panel close by.

I worked one church kitchen where they rent the fellowship hall for weddings, etc. Their kitchen had a commercial range hood with shunt trip breakers.

Weddings are often catered and the cooking is done off site and all they might need on site is some warming appliances. Catering companies often have butane fired warmers, never know when you have to cater some place where there is none or not enough power.

The need for hood with fire suppression and such typically depends on what kind of appliances are in use. Anything that normally creates air laden grease typically requires such hood system. This be fryers, broasters, griddles, general use ranges/cooktops may or may not simply because of the diversity of what could be cooked on them.

 

[jmellc]

Weddings are often catered and the cooking is done off site and all they might need on site is some warming appliances. Catering companies often have butane fired warmers, never know when you have to cater some place where there is none or not enough power.

The need for hood with fire suppression and such typically depends on what kind of appliances are in use. Anything that normally creates air laden grease typically requires such hood system. This be fryers, broasters, griddles, general use ranges/cooktops may or may not simply because of the diversity of what could be cooked on them.

They did some heavy duty cooking there. They had all the equipment you named.

 

[jim dungar]

They did some heavy duty cooking there. They had all the equipment you named.

We have a 10 burner stove and 10 fryer baskets under a single hood.

You never know what these churches will want done in their halls.