Circuit breaker racks

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Tainted

Tainted

Senior Member
Location
New York
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Engineer (PE)
I need a circuit breaker rack just like the picture below (the cover is pulled out), it has circuit breakers where we can put input and output wires:

unnamed.png

The problem is I cannot find a factory assembled UL listed product like this anywhere.

If I make a custom one with a large wireway and dinrail mounted fuses/circuit breakers, wouldn't I have to get it UL listed?

If anybody can find a product like this please let me know...
 
Last project I had like that I used A-B Din-Rail mounted breakers and a matching enclosure.
 
Tainted said:
Was it factory assembled or did you make it custom yourself? Doesn't the panel you made need to be UL listed?
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Oddly, a simple text search for "listed" does not turn up any required in Article 408 Panelboard that they be listed, or even in Article 240 that OCPD be listed.

Regardless, a panelboard, per the Article 100 definition, has busses. So if you stick a bunch of breakers on DIN rails within an enclosure, and you don't use any busses, that's not a panelboard.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
Oddly, a simple text search for "listed" does not turn up any required in Article 408 Panelboard that they be listed, or even in Article 240 that OCPD be listed.

Regardless, a panelboard, per the Article 100 definition, has busses. So if you stick a bunch of breakers on DIN rails within an enclosure, and you don't use any busses, that's not a panelboard.

Cheers, Wayne
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New for the 2023 code.
240.7 Listing Requirements.
The following shall be listed:
  • (1)Branch-circuit overcurrent protective devices
  • (2)Relays and circuit breakers providing ground-fault protection of equipment
  • (3)Ground-fault circuit interrupter devices
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There is still no general requirement that the equipment covered by Article 408 be listed.

Not sure what you call an assembly of breakers with line and load connections, as you are correct, that would not meet the definition of panelboard.
 
wwhitney said:
Oddly, a simple text search for "listed" does not turn up any required in Article 408 Panelboard that they be listed, or even in Article 240 that OCPD be listed.

Regardless, a panelboard, per the Article 100 definition, has busses. So if you stick a bunch of breakers on DIN rails within an enclosure, and you don't use any busses, that's not a panelboard.

Cheers, Wayne
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Never thought of it that way... But does the din rail and enclosure need to be listed to install listed breakers? or can someone just literally buy any metal box and install some dinrails in it without it being an issue?
 
Tainted said:
Never thought of it that way... But does the din rail and enclosure need to be listed to install listed breakers? or can someone just literally buy any metal box and install some dinrails in it without it being an issue?
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The code would permit that, but it gets more complicated if you are using the end product in the work place. OSHA requires electrical equipment used in the work place to be listed.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
The code would permit that, but it gets more complicated if you are using the end product in the work place. OSHA requires electrical equipment used in the work place to be listed.
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Would code permit it in NYC? See NYC Electrical code amendment 110.2:

110.2 Approval of Electrical Materials, Equipment and Installations.
(A) Listed and Approved Materials and Equipment. All electrical equipment, apparatus, materials, devices, appliances or wiring thereto installed or used in any electrical construction or installation regulated by the terms of this code, shall be designed and constructed so as to be safe and suitable for the purpose intended.
(1) All electrical equipment, apparatus, materials, devices, appliances and wiring used in New York City shall be approved by the commissioner, with submissions required in accordance with rules of the department.
(2) The maker’s name, trademark or other identification, symbol and number shall be placed on fittings, equipment and materials. Additional markings shall be provided, stating voltage, current, wattage or other appropriate ratings as prescribed elsewhere in this code
 
hbiss said:
Certainly does not look like it.

My question is why do you need such a thing?

-Hal
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Installing new meter banks like this one:


unnamed.jpg

Need to refeed 50 amp apartments but I think the new meter bank will only take 70amp fuses minimum.
 
The standards we have been trained with like the National Electrical Code are going out the window.
Up is down and down is up !
 
The NEC doesn't actually require many things to be listed. What gets you often however is the wording in article 110 which states that equipment and materials must be approved by the authority having jurisdiction. So that grants quite a bit of leeway for the inspector to fail things if he thinks it is too home brew. Of course the inspector is not the "authority having jurisdiction" but that is what it will come down to and how much of a fight you want to make pleading your case to the higher-ups. Not sure how things work there, perhaps you could ask the inspector or get an advisory inspection?
 
The photo in the top post is showing "wire in / wire out" style breakers. PANELBOARDS, as defined by UL67, have busbar and require bracing, withstand ratings etc. So you will not find a "factory assembled UL listed product" like that already made.
 
Are the meter banks you are installing the ones you pictured in post 11? If so, dumb question: Has anyone asked All City Switchboard if they can make you a new one of that top piece with 50A 2P breakers instead of fuseholders?

What are the dimensions of the existing fuseholders?

What AIC do you need, and do the new breakers have to be series rated with whatevers downstream?
 
Todd0x1 said:
Are the meter banks you are installing the ones you pictured in post 11? If so, dumb question: Has anyone asked All City Switchboard if they can make you a new one of that top piece with 50A 2P breakers instead of fuseholders?

What are the dimensions of the existing fuseholders?

What AIC do you need, and do the new breakers have to be series rated with whatevers downstream?
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Yes I'm thinking about using the meter bank in post 11, that one wasn't my job. The top fuses are by bolt switch:
https://boltswitch.com/pdf/O-1352.pdf

Haven't asked all city about making a custom one with 2P breakers, downstream are the apartment panels with 10kaic breakers
 
Tainted said:
Yes I'm thinking about using the meter bank in post 11, that one wasn't my job. The top fuses are by bolt switch:
https://boltswitch.com/pdf/O-1352.pdf

Haven't asked all city about making a custom one with 2P breakers, downstream are the apartment panels with 10kaic breakers
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a 50 amp 2P molded case breaker is almost the same size as those fuseholders. The one I am looking at is 6.46x2.44 vs 6.5x2.75 for the fuseholder. I wonder if those would make for a drop in replacement.

Or for less $ just have whatever bracket is required to hold a row of something like a QOU250 and a new cover to fit.
 
Todd0x1 said:
a 50 amp 2P molded case breaker is almost the same size as those fuseholders. The one I am looking at is 6.46x2.44 vs 6.5x2.75 for the fuseholder. I wonder if those would make for a drop in replacement.

Or for less $ just have whatever bracket is required to hold a row of something like a QOU250 and a new cover to fit.
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It'll work, but making something like this is not my expertise and risky because AHJ can disapprove it on the spot. It's not a conventional way of feeding apartments if it is not factory installed. I am making plans and if it doesn't work out, it's back to the drawing board and time wasted + I'll probably be yelled at for coming up with this idea
 
Tainted said:
It'll work, but making something like this is not my expertise and risky because AHJ can disapprove it on the spot. It's not a conventional way of feeding apartments if it is not factory installed. I am making plans and if it doesn't work out, it's back to the drawing board and time wasted + I'll probably be yelled at for coming up with this idea
Click to expand...

My two suggestions were for having all city switchboard do it, not as a field modification. I wouldnt even consider such for NYC.
 
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