Circuit Breakers

[xelatj]

Is there any thing in the NEC Code that states that all Breakers in the Main Breaker Box have to be all of the same manufacture. I understood that has long as they are of the same type and UL approved, that the manufacture was not a of any concern

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Circuit Breakers

They must be either listed or classified for use in the panel. Just because they fit, does not mean you are permitted to use them.
Don

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Circuit Breakers

Other than the broad brush of 110.3(B), this is not a Code issue. The breakers can be of mixed manufacturer, but:

equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

At Christmas, I've always thrilled at openning the box and putting the toy together, and only if I am stuck, finding and reading the instructions. . .

I am abusing 110.3(B) when I don't start with the instructions.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Circuit Breakers

2 problems here.
1st it voids warranty
2nd if the breaker is not listed for use in this panel you can not use it legally .If it was not tested for use in this panel then that UL stamp means nothing.

 

[pierre]

Re: Circuit Breakers

Jim
You may not be completely correct in your last post. Go to the UL website and read the statement they have regarding "classification" of MCCB and their use in different manufacturer's eqiupment.

Try reference E7819, E45310 - Cutler-Hammer Residential Circuit Breakers.

Pierre

[ January 18, 2005, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]

 

[petersonra]

Re: Circuit Breakers

Originally posted by jimwalker:
2 problems here.
1st it voids warranty
2nd if the breaker is not listed for use in this panel you can not use it legally .If it was not tested for use in this panel then that UL stamp means nothing.

Why do you care if it voids the warranty? Have you ever returned a $5 CB because it failed? It would cost you more to return it then you'd get out of it. More cost effective to just toss it. Even so no one is going to ask if you did anything to void the warranty. as long as it is within the warranty they will just replace it.

I am not so sure about your second statement either.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Circuit Breakers

Bob, i am not concerned with the $5 breaker that went bad.I am concerned with the other 39 breakers that got burned up or damaged from the breaker that was wrong.If a panel starts to arc and carbonize it destroys all the breakers and bus bars.I have seen this happen and the cost could easily reach hundreds or even thousands if any electronics are damaged over this.Even if the mis used breaker was not the cause, the warranty could be void.
Yes cutler hammer has some breakers that are approved for other panels.Just be carefull to varify them first.In short read the panel sticker and only used breakers it listed.
I am not saying i never used other breakers but it is walking on thin ice.That U L stamp is only for panels it was approved in.Yes it will likely do fine with others breakers ,but is it worth whats at risk.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Circuit Breakers

Jim

Case 1: You install the "right" breaker in the panel

Case 2: You install the "wrong" breaker in the panel

Situation: Breaker fails causing the kind of damage you describe.

Question: How is your liability any different between the 2 cases? It still failed, and caused the same amount of damage, and IF you are on the hook for it, you are on the hook.

 

[wirenut1980]

Re: Circuit Breakers

IMHO, if jim installed the "right" breaker to code and within the manufacturers instructions, and then the breaker fails, how can jim be held liable? I would think in that case the breaker manufacturer would be the one liable.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Circuit Breakers

Originally posted by wirenut1980:
IMHO, if jim installed the "right" breaker to code and within the manufacturers instructions, and then the breaker fails, how can jim be held liable? I would think in that case the breaker manufacturer would be the one liable.

is the end user going to call square d or jim?

 

[templdl]

Re: Circuit Breakers

Let's back the truck up a bit on this subject. It appears as though there is much to do about nothing.
The key is the Magnusson-Warranty Act
which prevents manufacturers from making warranties contingent upon the use of their breakers as replacements of additions, as long as the third-party's part is safe.
Since safely has been proven by an independent testing agency, i.e. UL, the panelboard manufacturer's warranty is still effective when you a breaker that is UL classified for installation in that panel.
I hope this puts this to bed.

 

[iwire]

Re: Circuit Breakers

Originally posted by templdl:
I hope this puts this to bed.

Thank You!

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Circuit Breakers

I think some are you are missing the point.Who will pick up the bill if i used a unlisted breaker and the panel burns up.This is not a $5 problem anymore.Had i only used listed breakers and installed them correctly i will get payed.No im still the one the home owner calls but i am not out any money over this.Should 2 breakers seem to be the starting point just how will we rule as to the one causing the damage.This is about covering my butt not what will work

 

[charlie]

Re: Circuit Breakers

Jim, they are not talking about unlisted breakers. The discussion is about circuit breakers that have been tested with the panelboards that you are installing them in and Cutler-Hammer will even warrantee the damaged panelboard if it is their circuit breaker that causes the harm.

This whole issue is a smokescreen to make sure that the seller of the razor gets to sell you all the razer blades.

 

[templdl]

Re: Circuit Breakers

I don't think it makes much difference Jim.
Using the SqD homelone as an example. How does SqD's warranty read? If you use solely SqD breakers in that panel and there is a failure does the warranty cover the panel but not the labor? Does it include the labor and are consequestial damages covered?
The following is the SqD warranty as included on page 23 of their residential catalog and it was not my intent to omit anything should there be and omission. It is NOT my intent to misrepresent the SqD warranty.
The question is if the contractor's cost for warranty replacement of the panel are covered. I on't see where they would be.
The warranty does address the use of UL Classified circuit breakers which is covered by the Magnusson-Warranty Act anyway so that isn't an issue.

Warranties
Square D Residential Products
A. Limited Warranties ?
1. SquareD Single Phase Load Centers and Combination Service Entrance Devices. Square D warrants its single phase load centers and combination service entrance devices to be free from defects in material and workmanship, under normal care and proper usage in a residential installation, for a period of ten (10) years from the date of installation. If the product fails within the warranty period because of a defect in material or workmanship, Square D will, at its option, repair or replace the or parts upon following the notice procedures below and return of product to place of purchase.
2. SquareD Load Center Branch Circuit Breakers. Square D warrants its branch circuit breakers to be free from defects in material and workmanship under normal care and proper usage in a residential installation, for the lifetime of the load center in which it is installed. If the circuit breaker falls within the warranty period because of a defect in material or workmanship, Square D will replace the defective breaker free of charge upon following the notice procedures below and return of the product to place of purchase.
B. Exclusive Remedy ? The repair and/or replacement of defective products is your sole and exclusive remedy.
C. Warranty Redemption and Exclusions ?
1. Square D must be given prompt written notice of any defect or failure of any product covered by these limited warranties at the following address: Square D Company, 1*15 S. Rosalie Road, Palatine, Illinois, 60067, (888) 778-2733, weekdays between the hours of 8:0O a.m. and 5:00 p.m. Eastern Time.
For warranty redemption, you must return the product to Square D at the above address.
2. Any product returned under these limited warranties, if shipped, must be sent freight costs prepaid. Square D will or replaced products to buyer, freight costs prepaid. Repaired or replaced products shall be warranted hereunder only for the unexpired portion of the original warranty period. This warranty does not include costs or reimbursement for labor. Any limited warranties granted or liabilities assumed hereunder will not apply to products that have been damaged, altered, repaired or operated otherwise than in conformity with the requirements for safe operation and maintenance.
For your safety and to provide optimum short circuit protection, Square D recommends that you use only the Square D circuit breakers identified on the load center or combination service entrance device label or wiring diagram. Square D disclaims liability for damage, injury or non-performance caused by the use or failure of incompatible or UL Classified circuit breakers.
D. Disclaimer of All Other Warranties ? EXCEPT FOR THE EXPRESS WARRANTY SET FORTH ABOVE OR ANY IMPUED BY LAW, Square D MAKES NO OTHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES. TO THE FULLEST PERMITTED BY LAW, Square D DISCLAIMS ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING ALL WARRANTIES MERCHANTABILITY AND/OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE THE FOREGOING DISCLAIMER MAY NOT APPLY TO?YOU DEPENDING UPQNTHE PRODUCTYOU PURCHASE, THE APPLICATION AND USE OF YOUR PRODUCT, OR YOUR STATUS AS A CONSUMER. TO THE EXTENT YOU ARE ENTITLED TO RECOVER UNDER AN IMPLIED WARRANTY, THE DURATION OF THAT IMPLIED WARRANTY SHALL BE THE PERIOD OF THE EXPRESS LIMITED WARRANTY SET FORTH ABOVE.
E. Limitation of Liability ? Square D expressly disclaims any and all liability to you for any consequential or incidental damages, damages for loss of use, loss of profits, income or revenue, loss of time or inconvenience, loss or damage to associated equipment, damages to tangible or intangible property, other than the equipment covered by this limited warranty, cost of substituted or replacement equipment other than as expressly warranted, damages associated with excessive overvoltages, obsolescence, abuse, misuse, non-authorized modification, alteration or catastrophic events, or any other incidental, consequential or special damage arising out of the use of the products. Square D shall not be liable for indirect, special, incidental or consequential damages with respect to the sale of the products, including any lost revenue or profits, consequential and/or incidental damages, business interruption or damage to business reputation, regardless of the theory upon which any claim may be based, including any statutory, tort contract or insurance subrogation causes of action or claims. In no event will SquareD?s entire liability to you, including any liability in the event the exclusive remedy set forth in this agreement fails of its essential purpose, exceed the purchase price for the affected products. Some States do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the preceding limitations or exclusions may not apply to you. This limited warranty gives you specific legal rights, and you may also have other rights, which vary, from State to State.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Circuit Breakers

#12

Thanks for pointing out that the biggest expense in warranty work is typically not covered by the manufacturer of the equipment that fails (that wouldbe the labor involved in the replacement). I sort of assumed this was universally understood, and could not quite understand Jim's position.

A company I used to work for had a warranty we referred to as "sole cost warranty". It meant we were on the hook for anything that went wrong for whatever the term of the warranty including the cost of labor. I don't recall the exact number but it was a big chunk.

Some specs were written that way because the engineering companies wanted the OEM to supply better quality pieces but did not want to write the spec that way. What ended up happening was OEMs would supply the lowest cost stuff they could find and if it failed during the warranty period, well that was just part of the game.

 

[templdl]

Re: Circuit Breakers

Correction, The warranty is on page 63 of my copy of the Square D Residential Products catalog and not 23.