Clarification on 240.90 and 240.2 Supervised Industrial Locations

[User2]

240.90 & 240.2 Supervised Industrial Locations. ​

In supervised industrial locations, certain procedures for protecting conductors and equipment are permitted which would not be allowed in other occupancy types. Click to Enlarge; Mouse Over to Zoom In supervised industrial locations, certain procedures for protecting conductors and equipment are permitted which would not be allowed in other occupancy types. A supervised industrial location is defined in 240.2 as the manufacturing part of a facility that meets 3 conditions: Conditions of maintenance and engineering supervision ensure that only qualified persons monitor and service the system. The premises wiring system has 2500 kVA or greater of load used in industrial process(es), manufacturing activities, or both, as calculated in accordance with Article 220. The premises has at least one service or feeder that is more than 150 volts to ground and more than 300 volts phase-to-phase. The definition of Supervised Industrial Installation, in section 240.2, does not include those parts of the property that are used for "offices, warehouses, garages, machine shops, and recreational facilities." Supervised industrial locations are given special treatment because of the high level of engineering and professional maintenance support which is usually available in these facilities. The Code assumes that people doing electrical work in industrial facilities are qualified according to the definition in Article 100, which says a qualified person is one who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training on the hazards involved. Not only are the electricians qualified, but they are supervised by competent professionals. At least one of the other two conditions limit the definition of a supervised industrial installation to large manufacturing or process control plants. A 2500 kVA load calculated according to Article 220 would be over 3000 amps, assuming most of the equipment was operated at 480 volts, 3-phase (2,500,000 VA /480 x 1.73 = 3012 amps). This load excludes any part of the installation that is not manufacturing, like offices, warehouses, garages, machine shops, and recreational facilities. **We have on site (6) 4,000A switchgears @480V and the majority of the plant is all manufacturing operations. I am a journeyman electrician and am supervised by a Mechanical Engineer (not licensed). In part 1, I am sure I qualify as a qualified person to maintain/service the systems but my question is on engineering supervision. What exactly is meant to be the requirements for engineering supervision under part 1, ie: does this have to be a Master Electrician, Electrical Engineer (not licensed), or an Electrical Engineer (licensed) or any unlicensed/licensed Engineer. This question is mainly in reference to the electrical permitting process. I am being told that our manufacturing lines are supervised by the mechanical engineer (not licensed) and they do not need any electrical permits for any work in that area. We currently pull all electrical permits for outside the production areas ie: offices, warehouses and our machine shops. I would feel better having clarification on if our industrial areas need permits or if what I am being told is correct and we do not need permits based on our current journeyman and mechanical engineer(unlicensed) staffing.

 

[petersonra]

what kind of permit are you talking about? If it is a permit from some governmental entity that requires such permits, no amount of qualifications or supervision of any type makes the work exempt from the required permit.

having said that, a fair number of places have at least de facto agreements in place to allow ongoing work in industrial facilities without the need to acquire a permit.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

240.90 & 240.2 Supervised Industrial Locations. ​

In supervised industrial locations, certain procedures for protecting conductors and equipment are permitted which would not be allowed in other occupancy types. Click to Enlarge; Mouse Over to Zoom In supervised industrial locations, certain procedures for protecting conductors and equipment are permitted which would not be allowed in other occupancy types. A supervised industrial location is defined in 240.2 as the manufacturing part of a facility that meets 3 conditions: Conditions of maintenance and engineering supervision ensure that only qualified persons monitor and service the system. The premises wiring system has 2500 kVA or greater of load used in industrial process(es), manufacturing activities, or both, as calculated in accordance with Article 220. The premises has at least one service or feeder that is more than 150 volts to ground and more than 300 volts phase-to-phase. The definition of Supervised Industrial Installation, in section 240.2, does not include those parts of the property that are used for "offices, warehouses, garages, machine shops, and recreational facilities." Supervised industrial locations are given special treatment because of the high level of engineering and professional maintenance support which is usually available in these facilities. The Code assumes that people doing electrical work in industrial facilities are qualified according to the definition in Article 100, which says a qualified person is one who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training on the hazards involved. Not only are the electricians qualified, but they are supervised by competent professionals. At least one of the other two conditions limit the definition of a supervised industrial installation to large manufacturing or process control plants. A 2500 kVA load calculated according to Article 220 would be over 3000 amps, assuming most of the equipment was operated at 480 volts, 3-phase (2,500,000 VA /480 x 1.73 = 3012 amps). This load excludes any part of the installation that is not manufacturing, like offices, warehouses, garages, machine shops, and recreational facilities. **We have on site (6) 4,000A switchgears @480V and the majority of the plant is all manufacturing operations. I am a journeyman electrician and am supervised by a Mechanical Engineer (not licensed). In part 1, I am sure I qualify as a qualified person to maintain/service the systems but my question is on engineering supervision. What exactly is meant to be the requirements for engineering supervision under part 1, ie: does this have to be a Master Electrician, Electrical Engineer (not licensed), or an Electrical Engineer (licensed) or any unlicensed/licensed Engineer. This question is mainly in reference to the electrical permitting process. I am being told that our manufacturing lines are supervised by the mechanical engineer (not licensed) and they do not need any electrical permits for any work in that area. We currently pull all electrical permits for outside the production areas ie: offices, warehouses and our machine shops. I would feel better having clarification on if our industrial areas need permits or if what I am being told is correct and we do not need permits based on our current journeyman and mechanical engineer(unlicensed) staffing.

I believe the basic question you have is does a Mechanical Engineer meet the "Engineering Supervision" component of your question. First, a mechanical engineer has to actually be a licensed engineer in many states, but in some states as long as they have a BS in Electrical Engineering they would be fine. For example, I have a BSEE but it is unaccredited in that it is not observed by the US for government loans and grants, accreditation is voluntary by universities but most people do not know this.. regardless, I am the head of the engineering division at my company but am not a licensed PE and my degree is technically not accepted by the state I live in. However, I have the technical knowledge to be head of the department....hope you see how that kinda works....the paper means nothing unless the people who want you to have it...make you have it as the knowledge is what is to be considered.

Next, I would consider any Master Electrician as a Qualified Person in terms of the NEC and otherwise. It is not my nor anyones place to judge someone otherwise if they officially have the qualifications.

In terms of "industrial" that is a tough one....we manufacture wire and cable but I would not call us "industrial" unless I had to argue that point to someone and build a case because on the surface we produce products for commercial sale so I consider us just commercial in nature. However, due to the nature of our production we would meet all the conditions of the definition in 240.2 to be considered industrial....So we could swing both ways I guess.

Now it brings me to the Permitting question - As a former Engineer II at a large municipality, our requirements (and seems like others are the same way) were that any project where the service was over a specific size would require a Licensed Electrical Engineer (PE) but we also have a dollar amount on the project as well to also qualify for PE design. Also for example in Texas the Licensed Master Electrician can do just about everything a Licensed PE can do.....so you see it's goes state by state really.

The best thing you could do it simply call the local AHJ and ask them...point blank....but in terms of designing a drawing for AHJ submittal I would not believe a individual with a BS in Mechanical Engineering would qualify as ...they would require a seal from a licensed PE.