Clipper Creek HCS-40P, 30A 240V EVC Overcurrent protection

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grasfulls

grasfulls

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We ran a circuit to the garage to supply 30 amps continuous (40 amp circuit). Why would the manufacturer provide this unit with a 50 amp cord and mandate a 50 amp breaker?
Charging Amperage: 30A
Supply Circuit: 208/240V, 50A
Installation: Plug in, NEMA 14-50 receptacle
Cord Length: 25 feet
Enclosure: NEMA 4; indoor rated, fully sealed
thanks!
gare
 
grasfulls said:
We ran a circuit to the garage to supply 30 amps continuous (40 amp circuit). Why would the manufacturer provide this unit with a 50 amp cord and mandate a 50 amp breaker?
Charging Amperage: 30A
Supply Circuit: 208/240V, 50A
Installation: Plug in, NEMA 14-50 receptacle
Cord Length: 25 feet
Enclosure: NEMA 4; indoor rated, fully sealed
thanks!
gare
Click to expand...

It might help if you told us what the equipment is.
There are no 40A receptacle/plugs in a NEMA configuration anyway.
 
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it's a clipper creel EV car charger.
It needs a 50 amp circuit as per manufacture spec.
 
Sierrasparky said:
it's a clipper creel EV car charger.
It needs a 50 amp circuit as per manufacture spec.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I noticed after I posted that the title of the thread/post had the brand and model in it.

I seldom remember the title of a thread when I read the posts. So either a description or link to the item, put in the body of the post, would be better.
 
Clipper Creek units are usually named according to the size of the circuit they require. For example, I own a Clipper Creek LCS-25, which requires a 25 amp (well 30...) breaker, and is programmed to limit the vehicle charging to 20 amps.

The hardwired version of the HCS-40 specifies a 40A supply circuit, and limits the vehicle charging to 30 amps: http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/hcs-40-30a-240v-charging-25-cord-3/

I see what you mean with the HCS-40P: http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/hcs-40p-30a-240v-charging-25-cord-nema-14-50-plug/ Both the NEMA 14-50 and 6-50 variants indicate a 50A supply circuit, however I suspect that was written by somebody that's not familiar with standard practices in the industry (specifically the regular use of 50A receptacles for 40A circuits) Given that the HCS-40 specifies a 40A circuit, I would have no qualms also puting the HCS-40P on a 40A circuit as well. If anyone asks, show them the specs for the HCS-40. The units are identical except one comes with a plug and cord instead of a whip.
 
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40 amp charger requiring 50amp breaker - no?

40 amp charger requiring 50amp breaker - no?

Rampage_Rick said:
Clipper Creek units are usually named according to the size of the circuit they require. For example, I own a Clipper Creek LCS-25, which requires a 25 amp (well 30...) breaker, and is programmed to limit the vehicle charging to 20 amps.

The hardwired version of the HCS-40 specifies a 40A supply circuit, and limits the vehicle charging to 30 amps: http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/hcs-40-30a-240v-charging-25-cord-3/

I see what you mean with the HCS-40P: http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/hcs-40p-30a-240v-charging-25-cord-nema-14-50-plug/ Both the NEMA 14-50 and 6-50 variants indicate a 50A supply circuit, however I suspect that was written by somebody that's not familiar with standard practices in the industry (specifically the regular use of 50A receptacles for 40A circuits) Given that the HCS-40 specifies a 40A circuit, I would have no qualms also putting the HCS-40P on a 40A circuit as well. If anyone asks, show them the specs for the HCS-40. The units are identical except one comes with a plug and cord instead of a whip.
Click to expand...

Thank you Rick,
This is exactly what I mean. Just because a manufacturer stipulates a 50 amp breaker does not mean they are correct. We contacted Clipper Creek and they told us the 40 amp breaker is fine to use. We already knew it was the proper breaker, but we were perplexed by the corded version mandating a 50 amp breaker. We are installing a label above the receptacle that the circuit is limited to 40 amps specifically for the car charger.

The topic was not meant to elicit why the circuit should be 50 amps (this is what the manufacturer started with), but to have comments on the inaccuracy of the requirement just because it now has a cord and cap rated at 50 amps. We are asking the manufacturer if the charger has internal protection that would open the circuit in the event of a short or other situation where an overcurrent condition exists. Our primary concern is anything that might allow the unit to draw excessive amps and potentially present a fire issue. 625.21 requires a minimum 125% of overcurrent protection, the actual verbiage is:

"vehicle supply equipment shall be sized for continuous duty and shall have a
rating of not less than 125 percent of the maximum load of the electric vehicle supply equipment."

no mention of a "not more than".

Our assertion is that Clipper Creek's instructions should not mandate a 50 amp branch circuit as it is, minimally, an unnecessary cost burden. It should stipulate a minimum 40amp branch circuit. This would be in line with the instructions for a hard-wired unit, as you already pointed out. We are trying to find the code relative to sizing the over-current protection to the rating of the load (continuous in this case) versus the size of the feeders or a cord set. Interestingly in Table 240.3 there is no reference to Electrical Vehicle Charging.

What do you think?
 
The position of UL is that everything in the documents supplied by the manufacturer are 110.3(B) instructions and that they review all of the information.

UL would tell you that the use of the 40 amp circuit is a code violation based on 110.3(B).

I don't agree with UL on this issue and had a somewhat heated discussion with them in their board room at the Northbrook, Illinois office. I was there as part of a NJACT training class and the NJATC leaders as well as the UL officials were not very happy with me. No minds were changed and they still insist that everything is 110.3(B).
 
110.3 - that sucks

110.3 - that sucks

don_resqcapt19 said:
The position of UL is that everything in the documents supplied by the manufacturer are 110.3(B) instructions and that they review all of the information.

UL would tell you that the use of the 40 amp circuit is a code violation based on 110.3(B).

I don't agree with UL on this issue and had a somewhat heated discussion with them in their board room at the Northbrook, Illinois office. I was there as part of a NJACT training class and the NJATC leaders as well as the UL officials were not very happy with me. No minds were changed and they still insist that everything is 110.3(B).
Click to expand...

It makes zero sense...but...I am not sure it is labeled, it may only be in the literature, I need to look at that. Great post though, thanks...sorta.. :)
 
REALLY sucks

REALLY sucks

don_resqcapt19 said:
The position of UL is that everything in the documents supplied by the manufacturer are 110.3(B) instructions and that they review all of the information.

UL would tell you that the use of the 40 amp circuit is a code violation based on 110.3(B).
Click to expand...

I just reread and noticed UL considers all documentation to be 110.3(B), does the nfpa consider the label to include the documentation?
 
Move to CODE FORUM? Quoted copy email Clipper Creek

Move to CODE FORUM? Quoted copy email Clipper Creek

Rampage_Rick said:
I would have no qualms also puting the HCS-40P on a 40A circuit as well. If anyone asks, show them the specs for the HCS-40. The units are identical except one comes with a plug and cord instead of a whip.
Click to expand...

I wonder if this should be in the code forum? Sorry I started it in here. Here is what just went to Clipper Creek:

This email has two points/questions we would like addressed please, question 3 is an alternate for question 2. The primary issue is the client having to pay for a larger circuit than is necessary solely because they opted for a cord connection.
(1)
The HCS-40, 30A, 240V Charging, 25? Cord charges at 30 amps and requires a 40 amp breaker:
"Service Entrance: 208V to 240V, 60Hz ? 40 Amp Circuit (30A continuous for charging), single phase, 2-wire, with ground (L1, L2, and Ground)? Conduit and pigtail supplied"

If a client were to tell us they were purchasing a HCS-40 we would tell them a 40amp circuit is necessary.
The HCS-40P, 30A, 240V Charging, 25? Cord, NEMA 14-50 Plug is the same exact unit but with a 50 amp rated cord and plug. Your specifications states a 50 amp circuit:
?Service Entrance: 208V to 240V, 60Hz ? 50 Amp Circuit (30A continuous for charging), single phase, 2-wire, with ground (L1, L2, and Ground)? NEMA 14-50 plug in connection?
Both units at 30amp continuous with two different branch circuit ratings.

If they have an existing 40amp circuit to the garage, it is of no value with the corded unit.

We must now tell the client they have to pay more for the installation of the corded unit merely because your instructions mandate larger wires.

One ?might? reason with an inspector, but we would prefer that the installation instructions specifically state that the branch circuit may be rated at 40 amps because section 110.3(B) specifically states:
?(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment
shall be installed and used in accordance with any instruc-
tions included in the listing or labeling.?
(Underline/bold/italics by me)

So, when the instructions provided with the unit states 50 amps, a rule oriented inspector will mandate this as the UL interprets labeling to include the documentation provided with the unit and your unit is UL listed/labeled. It does not matter what any other code may state because the manufacturer has stipulated a 50amp circuit.

Our expectation is not to receive a discourse on why Clipper Creek should mandate a 50 amp circuit, though you may opt to do so, but rather a letter of modification we may insert into the documentation and a modification made to future documentation that stipulates a minimum 40amp branch circuit for both units.
(2)
Do the HCS-40 and the HCS-40P both have internal protection that opens all ungrounded conductors if an amperage draw exceeding 125% of the unit?s rating occurs?
(3)
Or, may the unit draw any amperage with no possibility of a fire?

Thank you in advance for any help you may provide.
 
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