Cloud base lighting system

[fayc11]

Good Afternoon,

"Cloud" base lighting system, lights are controlled by the"cloud", at a certain time in the AM they come and acertain light level is maintained through-out the day.
In the he evening the light level drops and in certain areas every otherlight goes out.

On a loss of power the light go fully on.

My question is on a loss of "communication" (not power) to the"cloud" what happens?
When the “cloud”goes down what would be the status of the lights? Stay on, go out, orfreeze right where they are?

Another question is during the off hours (lights are dim down, and in someareas every other light is off) how do you turn the lights on manually?
If there was a emergency, fire / smoke, evacuation, chemical spill, a patientcodes etc...Some of these lights are on a life safety branch circuit in ahospital.

I am looking in the code under 700.2 and 700.24 I looking to find a more clearerexplanation.

Any information / advice would be so appreciated.

Thank you

 

[Jraef]

All of those questions are typically aspects of the programming choices available. The NEC is not involved in those types of details, unless the “Full On at power fail” is being considered emergency egress lighting (which would surprise me if so).

 

[gar]

181121-1314 EST

fayc11:

Why do you or anyone want to control something from the cloud? Seems very dumb. There are some useful purposes for cloud control, but this is not one.

Most of your questions have nothing to do with the need for remote control (doesn't require the cloud), or need for very high power computing, or for local logic control.

The cloud might be useful to store backup data or programs.

What you have described can be done better with local equipment.

Most of your questions relate to how one would logically design a lighting control system.

.

 

[texie]

Cloud based lighting control is common in many installations. A properly designed system can be compliant for emergency and egress lighting.

 

[gar]

181121-1411 EST

texie:

Common usage does not necessarily mean good design.

Back in the late 60s I used time shared computing because there was no way I could afford the capability. By mid 70s I could do my own computing, and I switched as soon as this was possible. I see no way I would go back to a remote time shared system. Even for backup storage I really have no need for cloud (time and equipment sharing) to meet my backup needs.

.

 

[winnie]

Warning: thread derail:

There is fashion in engineering, and even more so fashion in marketing, just like everywhere else. Right now it is fashionable to 'internet enable' everything, and to then use (and require) the internet even for things that should be completely local.

I have a 'fitbit'. This is a useful tool. It requires a 'smartphone' to run the cute little app that lets you review your activity in detail, eg. to look for periods of inactivity, chart your pulse throughout the day, etc. This cute little app will not tell you anything if you do not have a live connection to the internet.

I have a Honeywell wifi thermostat. When I bought it I thought it would require some software on my PC to connect to the thermostat and do things like program it. Nope. The thermostat connects back to Honeywell, and then I have to go to the Honeywell website. I can't query the thermostat directly.

Part of this is intentional; Fitbit and Honeywell are gathering data about me which they can sell. Part of this is lazy; these companies are basically gluing together available pieces to make something that works, not necessarily in the most elegant fashion. Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1988/

Back to the OP: How the system responds to loss of communication is anybodies guess. How secure the system is versus malicious communication is another issue. I for one would not trust a 'cloud based' lighting system for anything other than amusing decorations. If I needed very 'intelligent' control, I would want a local controller, even if it was 'IP' based.

-Jon

 

[ggunn]

When I read the title of this thread I thought it might be about a novel street lighting concept that would bounce light off the bases of clouds.

 

[roger]

Some of these lights are on a life safety branch circuit in ahospital.

See 517.32(A), the Life Safety egress fixtures would have to "fail safe" to stay on under a problem.

Roger

 

[hbiss]

I think you are getting confused by "geek speak". The "Cloud" is just a computer someplace that controls your light fixtures via the internet and WiFi. That computer can be on your premises or somewhere else. But in any event you have control of the lighting via at least one computer on your premises, maybe even smart phones or tablets.

As to what happens in the event of failure to connect to the host computer because the internet or WiFi is down, I expect that the fixture would go to full on.

These are all questions you need to discuss with your lighting contractor before you sign the contract.

-Hal

 

[retirede]

I think you are getting confused by "geek speak". The "Cloud" is just a computer someplace that controls your light fixtures via the internet and WiFi. That computer can be on your premises or somewhere else.

-Hal

I don’t totally agree. If you have an on-premises computer dedicated to controlling things, that is not the “cloud”.
Cloud applications run virtually and not dedicated to any single computer. The host (or hosts) generally has one or more server farms running a huge number of applications with load sharing schemes so that one or more hardware failures should be unnoticed by users of the applications.

Now, if you lose connectivity, then you have a problem!

 

[K8MHZ]

I think you are getting confused by "geek speak". The "Cloud" is just a computer someplace that controls your light fixtures via the internet and WiFi. That computer can be on your premises or somewhere else. But in any event you have control of the lighting via at least one computer on your premises, maybe even smart phones or tablets.

I thought the 'Cloud' was pretty much this:

A cloud application usually runs on multiple (sometimes hundreds) of powerful internet-connected computers spread around the world. Not that you need to be aware of any of this - you just sign into the application using any web browser and it’s available instantly.

http://home.bt.com/tech-gadgets/computing/cloud-computing/eight-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-cloud-11363891172534

 

[Coppersmith]

I am happy to say that nothing in my house is connected to the internet except my PC and my phone and I closely monitor those to make sure I only send the information I want public. I don't use cloud backup. I don't use cloud-based office apps. I don't feel the need to control my thermostat or refrigerator from my car nor would I want to allow a hacker or big brother to do so. Cloud-based door locks are just crazy. And why would anybody willingly install their own big corporation surveillance device like an Alexa? I not a conspiracy nut, but people come on, wake-up.

As far as lighting is concerned, there are $20 timer switches that can control lighting that have built-in sunset/sunrise tables with daylight savings time adjustment. No need for clouds.

I have heard of installations in stores where a corporate office logs into the store server to control lighting, heating and music. This might be an exception, but could just as easily be done on a point-to-point basis.

 

[retirede]

I thought the 'Cloud' was pretty much this:

A cloud application usually runs on multiple (sometimes hundreds) of powerful internet-connected computers spread around the world. Not that you need to be aware of any of this - you just sign into the application using any web browser and it’s available instantly.

http://home.bt.com/tech-gadgets/computing/cloud-computing/eight-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-cloud-11363891172534

Yep - we posted basically the same response at the same time!

 

[pv_n00b]

Codes define how the emergency lighting has to work and they don't have a provision for it not working just because communication is lost. So you will need to get that working locally to code.

States that have lighting efficiency standards will have much more to say on the subject of lighting control in those particular energy codes. Outside of that, the NEC does not really go into how the lighting has to work but if I had a building with fancy lighting controls I would want a local backup control.

I took a tour of a newish campus in San Jose years ago and the facilities manager told a story about the cloud lighting controls. It did not take long for tech employees to find security holes in the system after they moved in and they were able to turn on and off lights to floors in the different buildings. I heard they had a lot of fun with it until the system was patched.

 

[fayc11]

Thank You for all great information very helpful.

I also was looking at the 2012 edition of the Life Safety code feel free to comment of how I am reading this...

NFPA 101 2012 edition (we have to go by what edition the Joint Commission and CMS go by…2012)

article 7.8 Illumination of means of egress page 79

7.8.1.2.2 Unless prohibited by chapters 11 through 43, automatic, motion sensor-type lighting switches shall be permitted in the means of egress, provided that the switch controller comply with ALL the following :
(1) The switch controllers are listed
(2) Switch controllers are equipped for fail safe operation and evaluated for this purpose
(3) Illumination timers set for 15-min duration
(4) Motion sensor is activated by any occupant in the area served by the lighting units
(5) The switch controller is activated by activation of the building Fire Alarm System

So if I am reading this right after the “automatic” is a comma

“Automatic,” to me is a “cloud base lighting system”. “Automatically” the lights come on go out
Cloud base lighting systems have a controller that talk to the cloud.

(5) The switch controller is activated by activation of the building Fire Alarm System.

This makes sense to me.
Right now in my situation that I inherited, fire alarm system goes off in the middle of the night, fire department shows up, corridor (means of egress) lights are dimmed down, some areas every other corridor light is off, and no manual over ride switch to turn the lights fully on.


7.8.1.2.3 A consideration for the approval of automatic motion sensor-type lighting switches, controls, timers, or controllers, is whether the equipment is listed for fail- safe device for use in the means of egress.

Am I my reading this right, the lights that light the public corridors (means of egress) the controller that talks to the cloud fails, loses connectivity, loses wifi these lights automatically come on (fail –safe)? Again not what I have, but makes a lot of sense.

Again Thank you all

 

[hbiss]

“Automatic,” to me is a “cloud base lighting system”. “Automatically” the lights come on go out
Cloud base lighting systems have a controller that talk to the cloud.

Cloud base lighting systems have fixtures with a controller that listens to the host computer. The fire system would have to communicate in the same way to the host and it controls the appropriate lighting fixtures.

-Hal

 

[MAC702]

...Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1988/...

And that just killed an hour of my day again. Thanks. :lol: