co gen installation

Status
Not open for further replies.

jrvazzer

Member
I ve never design installation of a co gen system. It produces 155KW electrical. Looking every where to see how is tied into the MDP. Some have indicated that connected similar to emerg. generator but how would that help reduce electrical enerysaving. In this case a supermarket application 24/7 operation they might want to take care of refrig equipment incase of loss of building power. What im looking for is the best way to tie in this free power and what equipment I need to make it work. ATS, Dist. Pnl. grid protection, Grd fault breakers
Thanks
 

dbuckley

Senior Member
Straight cogen plant doesn't use ATS (or MTS) because they are designed to run on-line in parallel with the utility.

However, you want more than cogen - you want standby power too.

Many cogens can't do standby at all, they require line power to operate. Thus you need to talk the the generator manufacturer for them to confirm that cogen / standby is possible, and how the recommend that you connect. You may need a transfer switch of some sort for this arrangement, or the genset will have its own control gear and you will need a panel "after" the genset control gear for your supported load.

Also the utility needs to be involved; they have rules.
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
I ve never design installation of a co gen system. It produces 155KW electrical. Looking every where to see how is tied into the MDP. Some have indicated that connected similar to emerg. generator but how would that help reduce electrical enerysaving. In this case a supermarket application 24/7 operation they might want to take care of refrig equipment incase of loss of building power. What im looking for is the best way to tie in this free power and what equipment I need to make it work. ATS, Dist. Pnl. grid protection, Grd fault breakers
Thanks

One can assume you are referring to a motor driven generator correct?
Unless you can prove that running the generator is cheaper than using the utility there will be no savings also running a diesel generator with fuel at over $3.00 per gal it in no way is free.
Most supermarkets will install gen. to handle the load on their refg. and freezer units to protect the product. This is done by tying in a ATS with the MDP for the equipment.
 

jrvazzer

Member
co gen installation

Cogen plants should never been installed for their electrical output; you size them as you would a boiler for heat output, and then get the electricity as a free byproduct.
This is a Co gen Plant install on the roof. Which is gas fed and creates heat and chill water and electric output is 155kw.
 

jrvazzer

Member
Co Gen Installion

Co Gen Installion

Straight cogen plant doesn't use ATS (or MTS) because they are designed to run on-line in parallel with the utility.

However, you want more than cogen - you want standby power too.

Many cogens can't do standby at all, they require line power to operate. Thus you need to talk the the generator manufacturer for them to confirm that cogen / standby is possible, and how the recommend that you connect. You may need a transfer switch of some sort for this arrangement, or the genset will have its own control gear and you will need a panel "after" the genset control gear for your supported load.

Also the utility needs to be involved; they have rules.


This co gen is gas fed and its by product beside heat and chiller is also electric. How is it that it needs line power to operate. Does it contribute to reducing electrical bill and if it is, can you use it also for emergency.
 

dbuckley

Senior Member
How is it that it needs line power to operate.
There are different types of generators, and cogen plants frequently use "asynchronous" generators, which have simpler control requirements than synchronous generators. However, a asynchronous generator wont deliver any power if the line supply is missing; the line supply excites (or perhaps self-excites) the generator. No line supply, no excitation, no generation.

A simple cogen plant of compatible size to the installation often needs nothing more than a breaker in the panelboard to connect, and it will backfeed the 'board when its generating. However, the backfed breaker installation (in the absence of other mechanisms) can never work as a generation system in the absence of line power; you need to have transfer switch(es) or split supplies and the right type of generator.

Does it contribute to reducing electrical bill
Yes, it can, as long as you don't try to feed the grid by generating more power than you are using. If you do this then the meter may "spin backwards", but most modern meters wont do that, they only measure power you take, and thus you will get no recompense for supplied electricity. To be able to over-supply you need to have either a "net metering" arrangement, or separate metering for give and take, all set up by the utility.

However, there's not just the electricity bill to consider; under most circumstances you want to optimise the total energy bill; its not good economics to save $1 on the eleccy bill if that buck cost you $1.20 when you add up the cost of gas, plant maintenance, and equipment depreciation. Of course, on the other side you need to consider what else you get out of the cogen plant; as I noted above if you size it as though it were a boiler, then you get the heat you need, plus free electricity.


can you use it also for emergency.
Maybe, if the cogen plant supports emergency operation. As I noted above, many cogen plants just won't generate in the absence of line power. However, this setup needs more "stuff" than just backfeeding a breaker in the panelboard; you'll need either transfer switches, and probably load splitting, or a cogen system that is expressly designed to support standby operation, which will obviate the need for transfer switches, but will still need maintained and non-maintained distribution.

Its also unlikely that you'll get a no-break supply, even in the cogen is running when the utility fails; it'll take a second to sort itself out, and coming back when utility is restored is often even worse. This is because the genset controls will try to avoid backfeeding the utility any more than necessary.

And of course, with any local generation, you need to think about things like the effect on the fault current...
 

jrvazzer

Member
cogen installation

cogen installation

Thanks you so very much. Have a lot of good info here. I just received two example one line from the manufactures engineers that provide some options for connection to our MDP. He saids that these options do not require ATS. I can't argue because Ive never design a cogen before. But it seems kind of vague. I'll speak to him soon but I feel this does not show enough a clearly discribes what is the owners and vendor equipment? sorry i couldnt attach it.
 

jrvazzer

Member
co gen installation

The riser showed a 155kw Cogen feeder connected to the MDP board. To a 250A c/b, the MDP switchgear 3000A rated. The board have numeris c/b from 1200A to 100A. You mean to tell me that if power is loss to the MDP this 155KW feeder is now feeding the board, with all that load. This riser was send to me by the manufacture of the Co Gen. Now I know why he said you don't need a ATS.
 

LLSolutions

Senior Member
Location
Long Island, NY
Is this a LP, or nat gas generator, or is it a fuel cell. Fuel cells around me, NY, are wired just like you would do a photo voltaic system. After the power is inverted and synched by the manufacture's equipment they are tied into the buildings gear basically by just back-feeding a breaker at the mdp. The poco by me changes the meter to one that read power both ways, since they buy the power back at a much cheaper rate than the sell it to you they won't just let a meter spin backwards. Also they have A LOT to say about how the install goes, remember you have the ability to put power on THEIR grid so they require outside accessible isolation switches and disconnects. Some systems wont let you run stand alone without grid support, depends on the manufacturer and poco. If the backup/co-gen isn't sized for the entire load you may have to incorporate a degree of load shedding to avoid damaging the co-gen.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top