ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
When submitting a code change to the NEC, does it help to have a sponser, such as IAEI or IBEW?
Code change
- Thread starter ryan_618
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charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Code change
Yes it does. The panels are not supposed to take in consideration the person who is making a proposal but they do. If you make your proposal to the IAEI or IBEW, it will be looked at and evaluated before it gets to the NFPA and will be submitted as a proposal from that organization.
Many times a proposal will be made and the panel will see that a particular organization is behind it. This tells the panel a lot about the proposal before even looking at the content. Both the IAEI and the IBEW are very concerned about safety as all of the represented organizations are. The IBEW is further concerned about ease of construction. Many of the organizations are interested in selling their products or services. Some are interested in cost to the customer. The list goes on.
All this is not to say that an individual's proposal is not taken seriously, they all are taken seriously. It is just that more thought and consideration goes into proposals from and organization.
Yes it does. The panels are not supposed to take in consideration the person who is making a proposal but they do. If you make your proposal to the IAEI or IBEW, it will be looked at and evaluated before it gets to the NFPA and will be submitted as a proposal from that organization.
Many times a proposal will be made and the panel will see that a particular organization is behind it. This tells the panel a lot about the proposal before even looking at the content. Both the IAEI and the IBEW are very concerned about safety as all of the represented organizations are. The IBEW is further concerned about ease of construction. Many of the organizations are interested in selling their products or services. Some are interested in cost to the customer. The list goes on.
All this is not to say that an individual's proposal is not taken seriously, they all are taken seriously. It is just that more thought and consideration goes into proposals from and organization.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Code change
That is about what I expected to hear. I am on the board for our local chapter of IAEI and am going to propose for the next cycle. I will have the chapter sponsor it. Thanks Charlie.
That is about what I expected to hear. I am on the board for our local chapter of IAEI and am going to propose for the next cycle. I will have the chapter sponsor it. Thanks Charlie.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Code change
If you are going through the local chapter, they will present it to your Section and it will end up with the IO to be presented. Assuming it is a good proposal, it will be presented to the NFPA when the proposals for the 2008 NEC are accepted. It would be well to present it here first to see how it goes like Bennie has suggested. If it can stand up here, it will have a fighting chance.
Good luck.
If you are going through the local chapter, they will present it to your Section and it will end up with the IO to be presented. Assuming it is a good proposal, it will be presented to the NFPA when the proposals for the 2008 NEC are accepted. It would be well to present it here first to see how it goes like Bennie has suggested. If it can stand up here, it will have a fighting chance.
Good luck.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: Code change
I agree. The IAEI is a good forum for the typical electrican to use for code proposals. I find attendance at the IAEI meetings to be worthwhile.
I agree. The IAEI is a good forum for the typical electrican to use for code proposals. I find attendance at the IAEI meetings to be worthwhile.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Code change
Basically it would be an exception to article 300.22 removing dwelling units from this provision. Also, removing the exception regarding the joist or stud space. The reason for this, without getting too lengthy, is that no other codes care what you put in a plenum in a dwelling unit. Neither the UMC nor the IMC care about it and they are the article that govern plenums. The issue here is flame spread of less than 25 and smoke developed index of less than 50. With that in mind, it is very legal, in a dwelling, to have ABS, wood or anything else in a plenum...what is that 14/2 NM going to do? I can't see a peice of NM cable creating more toxic fumes than a piece of 4"PVC!
[ July 01, 2003, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: ryan_618 ]
Basically it would be an exception to article 300.22 removing dwelling units from this provision. Also, removing the exception regarding the joist or stud space. The reason for this, without getting too lengthy, is that no other codes care what you put in a plenum in a dwelling unit. Neither the UMC nor the IMC care about it and they are the article that govern plenums. The issue here is flame spread of less than 25 and smoke developed index of less than 50. With that in mind, it is very legal, in a dwelling, to have ABS, wood or anything else in a plenum...what is that 14/2 NM going to do? I can't see a peice of NM cable creating more toxic fumes than a piece of 4"PVC!
[ July 01, 2003, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: ryan_618 ]
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Code change
Do you have documentation or other information that shows super-heated or burned non-metallic wiring methods do not produce toxic smoke?
Why would there be a 4" PVC conduit in this area? Other trade material?
Do you have documentation or other information that shows super-heated or burned non-metallic wiring methods do not produce toxic smoke?
Why would there be a 4" PVC conduit in this area? Other trade material?
Re: Code change
I take it you have a problem with NM cable permitted in the wall, but not in the ceiling space if it is for return air.
You have a good issue but I will not give it any chance to be approved. This section was created by special interests, and the same interests will not change it.
I take it you have a problem with NM cable permitted in the wall, but not in the ceiling space if it is for return air.
You have a good issue but I will not give it any chance to be approved. This section was created by special interests, and the same interests will not change it.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Code change
I think you very well might be right, Bennie. I don't have a problem with NM cable in any plenum if it is a dwelling unit, because like I stated before, the mechanical code doesn't have a problem with it. I submitted a change to the mechanical code to an article that stated "an upblast fan must be wired with a flexible electrical cable" and I am changing it to "an approved flexible wiring method". My point is this: Air-handling belongs in the mechanical code, the same way wiring methods belong in the electrical code. Bryan makes a good point on the substantiation, but my problem is that this is not a mathmetical substantiation, but one of common sense. It is fairly common to see plumbing material in the plenum if the plumber gets to the job before the HVAC contractor, which explains the "other trade material" Bryan speaks of. And what about the fact that the plenum is constructed of wood!!!!? Wood doesn't meet the flame spread and smoke developed index to be in a plenum, but the mechanical code permits it because it is not nearly the issue in a dwelling that it is in a commercial building.
[ July 02, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: ryan_618 ]
I think you very well might be right, Bennie. I don't have a problem with NM cable in any plenum if it is a dwelling unit, because like I stated before, the mechanical code doesn't have a problem with it. I submitted a change to the mechanical code to an article that stated "an upblast fan must be wired with a flexible electrical cable" and I am changing it to "an approved flexible wiring method". My point is this: Air-handling belongs in the mechanical code, the same way wiring methods belong in the electrical code. Bryan makes a good point on the substantiation, but my problem is that this is not a mathmetical substantiation, but one of common sense. It is fairly common to see plumbing material in the plenum if the plumber gets to the job before the HVAC contractor, which explains the "other trade material" Bryan speaks of. And what about the fact that the plenum is constructed of wood!!!!? Wood doesn't meet the flame spread and smoke developed index to be in a plenum, but the mechanical code permits it because it is not nearly the issue in a dwelling that it is in a commercial building.
[ July 02, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: ryan_618 ]
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Code change
Hello Ryan
NM cable is permitted to be installed perpendicular in the plenum, but not parallel in the plenum. I believe this is because of the 'amount' of toxic fumes developed during a fire. That is why I think it would be hard for this change, but try it, you never know.
Pierre
Hello Ryan
NM cable is permitted to be installed perpendicular in the plenum, but not parallel in the plenum. I believe this is because of the 'amount' of toxic fumes developed during a fire. That is why I think it would be hard for this change, but try it, you never know.
Pierre
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Code change
Hi Peirre! As always I aprreciate your reply. What I don't understand is why we care about a piece of NM, but not wood or ABS or PVS or anything else?
Hi Peirre! As always I aprreciate your reply. What I don't understand is why we care about a piece of NM, but not wood or ABS or PVS or anything else?
websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Re: Code change
Hi Guys,
The difference may be that the cable is a potential source of fire. None of the other items that have been mentioned would actually start a fire.
Typically when NM is run the length of a joist, it is secured via staples as opposed to passing through the joist space, when there isn't any potential for damage during the install process.
IMO,
Dave
Hi Guys,
The difference may be that the cable is a potential source of fire. None of the other items that have been mentioned would actually start a fire.
Typically when NM is run the length of a joist, it is secured via staples as opposed to passing through the joist space, when there isn't any potential for damage during the install process.
IMO,
Dave
george t. everett
Senior Member
- Location
- New York
Re: Code change
Websparky, I think that's a good answer!
Websparky, I think that's a good answer!
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Code change
Thanks Ryan
Dave what we need is a way to work together during the day so that when one cannot find an answer, the other can, I like your answer also.
Pierre
Thanks Ryan
Dave what we need is a way to work together during the day so that when one cannot find an answer, the other can, I like your answer also.
Pierre
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Code change
You make a good point. I think I'll give it shot anyway though. Should be a good experience for me, having never submitted to the NEC before.
You make a good point. I think I'll give it shot anyway though. Should be a good experience for me, having never submitted to the NEC before.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Code change
Be sure to put your proposal in very concise Code language and be very clear with your reasoning. Lastly, make sure you have any substantuation included.
One thing that turns off a panel very quickly is a proposal that is made just because the submitter thinks it is a good idea. It will be rejected in a heartbeat due to lack of substantuation. You substantion should include any problems this is or has caused in the field and any reports or studies that were done.
Be sure to put your proposal in very concise Code language and be very clear with your reasoning. Lastly, make sure you have any substantuation included.
One thing that turns off a panel very quickly is a proposal that is made just because the submitter thinks it is a good idea. It will be rejected in a heartbeat due to lack of substantuation. You substantion should include any problems this is or has caused in the field and any reports or studies that were done.
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