Code Compliant ATS Location?

[360Youth]

Here is a 200 amp ATS with service disconnecting means that was installed on an existing residence. The switch and generator now serve one of the two house panels with the existing SE feeder replaced with SER and grounds and neutrals isolated at the house panel. The remaining panel was left untouched. Both panels are located perpendicular to the meter on a the garage wall. The installation passed inspection, but I ask, what say you?

 

[kwired]

Here is a 200 amp ATS with service disconnecting means that was installed on an existing residence. The switch and generator now serve one of the two house panels with the existing SE feeder replaced with SER and grounds and neutrals isolated at the house panel. The remaining panel was left untouched. Both panels are located perpendicular to the meter on a the garage wall. The installation passed inspection, but I ask, what say you?

You have two service disconecting means supplying one structure and they are not grouped together. They were grouped together before installation of the ATS.

 

[charlie b]

I think it is compliant. You have two services, as permitted under 230.2(A)(4). Then, per 230.71 and 230.72,

• The "normal service" is allowed to have up to six disconnects, and those must be grouped together (it appears that this installation has only one), and
• The "optional standby service" is allowed to have up to six disconnects, and those must be grouped together (it appears that this installation has only one).

But nothing requires the disconnects associated with one service to be grouped with the disconnects associated with the other service.

 

[jwelectric]

I can?t see any external means to disconnect that transfer switch nor do I see a center lock off. I don?t think that the transfer switch meets the UL Standard for being suitable as service equipment but this don?t mean that it isn?t.

If the transfer is not suitable as service equipment meaning that there is no way to turn off both utility and generator power at the same time then this is in violation of Part II of Article 225.

If the meter base is what I think it is, it is a 400 amp that is supplying two 200 amp panels on the inside. If this is true and only one panel is being transferred then there is a violation of 230.72 as one service disconnect is outside and the other is inside.

In order to be suitable as service equipment the transfer must have internal overcurrent devices. If it doesn?t have overcurrent devices there is also a violation of 230.91

 

[texie]

Here is a 200 amp ATS with service disconnecting means that was installed on an existing residence. The switch and generator now serve one of the two house panels with the existing SE feeder replaced with SER and grounds and neutrals isolated at the house panel. The remaining panel was left untouched. Both panels are located perpendicular to the meter on a the garage wall. The installation passed inspection, but I ask, what say you?

If I understand correctly, you had two panels inside originally, each with service disconnecting means (I'm assuming they are side by side for grouping purposes). You now have 1 inside panel with service disconnecting means and the other panel is now a sub panel with the service disconnecting means outside at the service rated ATS. If so, I say NON COMPLIANT.

 

[kwired]

I think it is compliant. You have two services, as permitted under 230.2(A)(4). Then, per 230.71 and 230.72,

• The "normal service" is allowed to have up to six disconnects, and those must be grouped together (it appears that this installation has only one), and
• The "optional standby service" is allowed to have up to six disconnects, and those must be grouped together (it appears that this installation has only one).

But nothing requires the disconnects associated with one service to be grouped with the disconnects associated with the other service.

I think you may be right. I also think most inspectors will not see it that way without some good convincing.

If this second service is permitted he still has violation of 230.2(E). He needs "a permanent plaque or directory shall be installed at each service disconnect location denoting all other services, feeders, and branch circuits supplying that building or structure and the area served by each".

 

[ceb58]

I can?t see any external means to disconnect that transfer switch nor do I see a center lock off. I don?t think that the transfer switch meets the UL Standard for being suitable as service equipment but this don?t mean that it isn?t.

If the transfer is not suitable as service equipment meaning that there is no way to turn off both utility and generator power at the same time then this is in violation of Part II of Article 225.

If the meter base is what I think it is, it is a 400 amp that is supplying two 200 amp panels on the inside. If this is true and only one panel is being transferred then there is a violation of 230.72 as one service disconnect is outside and the other is inside.

In order to be suitable as service equipment the transfer must have internal overcurrent devices. If it doesn?t have overcurrent devices there is also a violation of 230.91

I agree with Mike except the ATS is service rated. You can make out the wording on the cover. But at the very least no where do I see the generator disconnect that is called for by 225.32.

 

[jwelectric]

[QUOTE=ceb58;1400339]I agree with Mike except the ATS is service rated. You can make out the wording on the cover. But at the very least no where do I see the generator disconnect that is called for by 225.32.[/QUOTE]

I refer you to this


TRANSFER SWITCHES (WPTZ)
GENERAL
Automatic transfer switches are required to be designed so that the load cannot remain simultaneously disconnected from both the normal and alternative sources when either or both sources are available, except that transfer switches marked ??SUITABLE FOR USE AS SERVICE EQUIPMENT?? are provided with externally accessible means to independently disconnect each source intended to be a service.

 

[kwired]

I can?t see any external means to disconnect that transfer switch nor do I see a center lock off. I don?t think that the transfer switch meets the UL Standard for being suitable as service equipment but this don?t mean that it isn?t.

If the transfer is not suitable as service equipment meaning that there is no way to turn off both utility and generator power at the same time then this is in violation of Part II of Article 225.

If the meter base is what I think it is, it is a 400 amp that is supplying two 200 amp panels on the inside. If this is true and only one panel is being transferred then there is a violation of 230.72 as one service disconnect is outside and the other is inside.

In order to be suitable as service equipment the transfer must have internal overcurrent devices. If it doesn?t have overcurrent devices there is also a violation of 230.91

If the door was open in the photo maybe you would have answers to what you question.

I have seen Generac ATS that have circuit breakers inside and are rated for use as service equipment. OP indicates that is likely what this is.

 

[kwired]

[QUOTE=ceb58;1400339]I agree with Mike except the ATS is service rated. You can make out the wording on the cover. But at the very least no where do I see the generator disconnect that is called for by 225.32.

I refer you to this


TRANSFER SWITCHES (WPTZ)
GENERAL
Automatic transfer switches are required to be designed so that the load cannot remain simultaneously disconnected from both the normal and alternative sources when either or both sources are available, except that transfer switches marked ??SUITABLE FOR USE AS SERVICE EQUIPMENT?? are provided with externally accessible means to independently disconnect each source intended to be a service.[/QUOTE]

An on site power supply is generally not considered a service. Art 100 definition of service:

Service. The conductors and equipment for delivering electric energy from the serving utility to the wiring system of the premises served.

A service can only be supplied by the serving utility. If electric energy is supplied by other than the serving utility, the supplied conductors and equipment are considered feeders, not a service.

Note: The second sentence is actually commentary from the NEC handbook.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If the door was open in the photo maybe you would have answers to what you question.

The white book quote that Mike posted says that the switch has to be externally accessible...that would mean you don't have to open the door to get the answer.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I refer you to this


TRANSFER SWITCHES (WPTZ)
GENERAL
Automatic transfer switches are required to be designed so that the load cannot remain simultaneously disconnected from both the normal and alternative sources when either or both sources are available, except that transfer switches marked ??SUITABLE FOR USE AS SERVICE EQUIPMENT?? are provided with externally accessible means to independently disconnect each source intended to be a service.

An on site power supply is generally not considered a service. Art 100 definition of service:

Note: The second sentence is actually commentary from the NEC handbook.[/QUOTE]
There is still a sevice that supplies the transfer switch and there must be an external means of disconnect for those conductors.

 

[kwired]

The white book quote that Mike posted says that the switch has to be externally accessible...that would mean you don't have to open the door to get the answer.

I don't run into a lot of these... but can't recall seeing one that does have external handle, especially the Generac models. How are getting a listing if that is the case? Or are they not listed and marked as though they are?

 

[elohr46]

I see generac ATS frequently, behind the door is usually a OCPD for the service and one for the Genny. This is no different from a service panelboard with an OCPD behind the door. I don't see a problem with the OP's install.

 

[jwelectric]

I see generac ATS frequently, behind the door is usually a OCPD for the service and one for the Genny. This is no different from a service panelboard with an OCPD behind the door. I don't see a problem with the OP's install.

For the sake of this discussion let?s say that the transfer switch is okay.
I only see one service supplying the meter base and only one meter. This is only one service serving this building. If the transfer is service rated and meets the UL Standard then we have one service disconnect outside with a disconnect for the feeders from the generator but the other service disconnect is inside which is in violation of 230.72.

 

[texie]

For the sake of this discussion let?s say that the transfer switch is okay.
I only see one service supplying the meter base and only one meter. This is only one service serving this building. If the transfer is service rated and meets the UL Standard then we have one service disconnect outside with a disconnect for the feeders from the generator but the other service disconnect is inside which is in violation of 230.72.

I agree, this is clearly one service with non grouped disconnects, as I stated previously. I don't think this one is even debatable.

 

[elohr46]

For the sake of this discussion let?s say that the transfer switch is okay.
I only see one service supplying the meter base and only one meter. This is only one service serving this building. If the transfer is service rated and meets the UL Standard then we have one service disconnect outside with a disconnect for the feeders from the generator but the other service disconnect is inside which is in violation of 230.72.

It sure sounds like the OP is using one of the two panels for standby power, I would say it's compliant with 230.72(B). Besides, if that is not the case, the panel in question would still have it's original OCPD intact that could be used to disconnect it from normal and standby power.

 

[jwelectric]

But what we have in the picture is two service disconnects that are supplied by the utility that are not grouped. If the disconnect for the generator was outside and supplied the transfer switch which houses one of the service disconnects on the inside it would be compliant.

As it stands now there are two utility service disconnects, one inside, one outside. 230.72 (A) is addressing the service disconnects that are supplied by the utility as normal power and each and every one of these must be grouped. 230.72(B) allows the disconnects for other means of alternate power to be located elsewhere.

 

[elohr46]

But what we have in the picture is two service disconnects that are supplied by the utility that are not grouped. If the disconnect for the generator was outside and supplied the transfer switch which houses one of the service disconnects on the inside it would be compliant.

As it stands now there are two utility service disconnects, ((one inside, one outside.)) 230.72 (A) is addressing the service disconnects that are supplied by the utility as normal power and each and every one of these must be grouped. 230.72(B) allows the disconnects for other means of alternate power to be located elsewhere.

I was under the impression from the OP that the panels were outside on a wall perpendicular to the meter.

 

[ceb58]

For the sake of this discussion let?s say that the transfer switch is okay.
I only see one service supplying the meter base and only one meter. This is only one service serving this building. If the transfer is service rated and meets the UL Standard then we have one service disconnect outside with a disconnect for the feeders from the generator but the other service disconnect is inside which is in violation of 230.72.

I will hold to what I stated about the ATS. It is marked "service rated ATS" on the front cover and I see no difference in lifting the cover to access the disconnect on it as apposed to lifting the cover on a meter/breaker combo.
After that every thing else is wrong. The non-grouping of the service disconnects 230.72(A) and no disconnecting means for the generator 225.32