Code Compliant/Possible?

[JFletcher]

On the recent thread about washers and dryers, a poster mentioned panel space. Rather than detour that thread with a question, I'll start a new one:

Would it be code compliant to install 2 two pole mini breakers (so four breakers occupying two slots), and handle tie the two inside breakers together to make a 240-volt circuit?

If this is legal, is it possible? Does anyone make handle ties for mini breakers?

I just don't work with them enough to know all the codes, listings, or products.

 

[MAC702]

I use them all the time. I call them double-tandems. The inner ones are already handle-tied and commonly available for 30, 40, and 50-amp 2-pole circuits. There are also some available that handle-tie the two outside poles, also!

EDIT: I see you are specifically asking about putting two single tandems next to each other and tying together two of the poles. I see no reason why you can't do this, especially considering that two-pole double tandems are already a thing.

 

[romex jockey]

they still make those Mac? ~RJ~

 

[JFletcher]

I use them all the time. I call them double-tandems. The inner ones are already handle-tied and commonly available for 30, 40, and 50-amp 2-pole circuits. There are also some available that handle-tie the two outside poles, also!

EDIT: I see you are specifically asking about putting two single tandems next to each other and tying together two of the poles. I see no reason why you can't do this, especially considering that two-pole double tandems are already a thing.

Ah, very cool. I see that they also have different amperages for the two outside breakers so that they can be used. And even a double handle tie breaker. Thank you very much.

 

[MAC702]

Ah, very cool. I see that they also have different amperages for the two outside breakers so that they can be used. Thank you very much.

Lots of different ones. I've even used a quad-20 where the two inside are a handle-tied 240V 20A ckt, and the two outsides are individual 120V 20A ckts.

 

[MAC702]

they still make those Mac? ~RJ~

I haven't bought any in a few weeks. I sure hope so!

 

[JFletcher]

they still make those Mac? ~RJ~

From your post, it sounds like it is an old product, yet I do not ever remember coming across one of these in the field.

perhaps I am lucky in that the overwhelming majority of panels that I work in have plenty of spare space.

 

[infinity]

Would it be code compliant to install 2 two pole mini breakers (so four breakers occupying two slots), and handle tie the two inside breakers together to make a 240-volt circuit?

If this is legal, is it possible? Does anyone make handle ties for mini breakers?

What is the 240 volt circuit, 2 wire, 1Ø? If it has a neutral then the answer is no on the handle ties.

 

[MAC702]

From your post, it sounds like it is an old product, yet I do not ever remember coming across one of these in the field. ...

Nope. In fact, the pictures I linked are current inventory at Home Depot and Amazon websites. I use them all the time, and keep a few common ones on hand.

 

[JFletcher]

What is the 240 volt circuit, 2 wire, 1Ø? If it has a neutral then the answer is no on the handle ties.

Code reference please.

and as I have never seen or used one of these, it was more of a hypothetical or classroom style question then an actual install of any type

 

[JFletcher]

Nope. In fact, the pictures I linked are current inventory at Home Depot and Amazon websites. I use them all the time, and keep a few common ones on hand.

let me rephrase... It sounds like it is a product that has been around for a long time. Good to know they are still available, though I am waiting for infinity or somebody else to post the code section that would preclude their use on a 4-wire circuit.

 

[infinity]

Code reference please.

Sure.

240.15 Ungrounded Conductors.
(A) Overcurrent Device Required. A fuse or an overcur-
rent trip unit of a circuit breaker shall be connected in
series with each ungrounded conductor. A combination of a
current transformer and overcurrent relay shall be consid-
ered equivalent to an overcurrent trip unit.
Informational Note: For motor circuits, see Parts III, IV, V,
and XI of Article 430.
(B) Circuit Breaker as Overcurrent Device. Circuit
breakers shall open all ungrounded conductors of the circuit
both manually and automatically unless otherwise permit-
ted in 240.15(B)(1), (B)(2), (B)(3), and (B)(4).
(1) Multiwire Branch Circuits. Individual single-pole cir-
cuit breakers, with identified handle ties, shall be permitted
as the protection for each ungrounded conductor of multi-
wire branch circuits that serve only single-phase line-to-
neutral loads.
(2) Grounded Single-Phase Alternating-Current Cir-
cuits. In grounded systems, individual single-pole circuit
breakers rated 120/240 volts ac, with identified handle ties,
shall be permitted as the protection for each ungrounded
conductor for line-to-line connected loads for single-phase
circuits.

 

[jaggedben]

Infinity, that code reference seems to contradict what you said. It seems to say that handle ties are permitted in either case.

To the general question: Homeline and QO make handle ties that could be used for this. So does GE, which actually has individual half size breakers (make your own tandems and quads). BR and Murray/Siemens factory 'quads' come with such handle ties, but I don't know that the ties are sold separately for the purpose of tying together handles of tandems. I see all of these frequently and don't consider it a 'classroom' question at all.

 

[infinity]

Infinity, that code reference seems to contradict what you said. It seems to say that handle ties are permitted in either case.

A single load supplied with a MWBC like a closes dryer cannot use single poles and a handle tie and but a 240 volt heater can. Isn't that what I said.

 

[LarryFine]

A single load supplied with a MWBC like a closes dryer cannot use single poles and a handle tie and but a 240 volt heater can. Isn't that what I said.

I believe the inner pair of quad breakers has an internal common trip.

 

[JFletcher]

I believe the inner pair of quad breakers has an internal common trip.

So a 4 pole, 2 space breaker with an internal common trip could be used to supply say a dryer, but two individual Mini tandems could not be handled tied to supply the same load?

I would presume that the reverse is also true, that if you had three individual 277 volt branch circuits, or a multiwire branch circuit, and you wished to repurpose them for a three phase load, that the handle ties would not be compliant, and one would have to replace the three Breakers with a single 3-phase breaker?

 

[infinity]

I believe the inner pair of quad breakers has an internal common trip.

Then that would be code compliant, my first comment was only refering to the OP.

 

[jaggedben]

A single load supplied with a MWBC like a closes dryer cannot use single poles and a handle tie and but a 240 volt heater can. Isn't that what I said.

Section 2 seems to me to say that the clothes dryer can also use single poles with a handle tie, as long as its a grounded system (which it would be).

 

[GoldDigger]

Section 2 seems to me to say that the clothes dryer can also use single poles with a handle tie, as long as its a grounded system (which it would be).

Section 2 would allow this, but only if the clothes dryer had only line to line loads. Most sold in the US run the motor off a line to neutral connection, making Section 2 inapplicable.

 

[Adamjamma]

Have used them so much in Jamaica as well..wish the FCI makers would come up with something like them... one afci/gfci package four lines..but as long as we are forced to buy it is like car insurance.. they charge an arm and a leg because they can..we have no choice...