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Code Question

A

Alwayslearningelec

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Occupation
Estimator
Having argument with GC as phase conductors shorted an caused a small fire.

Existing 208v 3P-40A breaker feeding a disconnect switch with 30A fuses for a food warmer. The existing wiring is #8's.

We had to relocate the kitchen warmer about 20' away to a temporary location. They wanted the disconnect relocated along with the warmer and a splice box where the disconnect was to extend the wiring to the new disconnect/warmer temp location.

We did not relocate the disconnect and left it in it's existing location and ran new wiring(#10's) from the load side of the disconnect to the new(temporary) location for the warmer.
We took the stance that the 40a breaker on the panel should have tripped. And also it would be a code violation to splice the existing #8's to #10's and run from splice box and extend them to the new temporary disconnect switch location. We said leaving the 30a fused disconnect in place and running #10' from the load side to the new warmer location was code compliant.

Does this make sense???
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
What you did certainly sounds Code compliant to me.

Where was the short and fire, and what did trip or blow?

Why would moving the fused disco have made any difference?
 
infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Alwayslearningelec said:
And also it would be a code violation to splice the existing #8's to #10's and run from splice box and extend them to the new temporary disconnect switch location. We said leaving the 30a fused disconnect in place and running #10' from the load side to the new warmer location was code compliant.
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Everything you've stated above is correct and in this scenario is code complaint. The #10's are protected at their ampacity of 30 amps by the fuses in the disconnect. The #8's are protected by the OCPD in the panel. So what's the problem?
 
A

Alwayslearningelec

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Occupation
Estimator
infinity said:
Everything you've stated above is correct and in this scenario is code complaint. The #10's are protected at their ampacity of 30 amps by the fuses in the disconnect. The #8's are protected by the OCPD in the panel. So what's the problem?
Click to expand...
They are saying us not utilizing a splice box and instead leaving the disconnect where it was and not relocating it 20' away along with the warmer caused the fire.
 
infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Alwayslearningelec said:
They are saying us not utilizing a splice box and instead leaving the disconnect where it was and not relocating it 20' away along with the warmer caused the fire.
Click to expand...
There must be more to it than that or you're obviously dealing with idiots. If they believe that leaving the disconnect 20' away is the sole reason for the fire they don't know much about how electricity works.
 
Fred B

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
you state the breaker, fuse and wire sizes; but what was the load of the equipment getting connected and was it considered continuous load?
Was the equipment direct wire or plug in? Been hearing about sub par receptacles being sold out there that have been causing issues, including fires. Also the receptacle, if there was one, IS a disconnecting means.
20ft should not have been enough voltage drop to directly be an issue.
Was wiring itself the source of fire or the connections? NM is not rated to full load continuous at 30A. But I have seen faulty connectors also melting down and burning. Seems the QC of the connectors have gone down as well even when buying traditionally "quality" connectors. Not sure if it is really the QC or if counterfeit connectors are also entering the field.
Not all fuses are created equal and may not blow in all circumstances so may not have adequate for the #10 NM

If I didn't know the rating of the equipment to be connected with existing system being #8 even if technically code compliant to extend with the #10 I would have stayed with the #8.
I have yet to see a "temporary" connection truly be temporary once out of my control.
 
A

Alwayslearningelec

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Occupation
Estimator
Fred B said:
you state the breaker, fuse and wire sizes; but what was the load of the equipment getting connected and was it considered continuous load?
Was the equipment direct wire or plug in? Been hearing about sub par receptacles being sold out there that have been causing issues, including fires. Also the receptacle, if there was one, IS a disconnecting means.
20ft should not have been enough voltage drop to directly be an issue.
Was wiring itself the source of fire or the connections? NM is not rated to full load continuous at 30A. But I have seen faulty connectors also melting down and burning. Seems the QC of the connectors have gone down as well even when buying traditionally "quality" connectors. Not sure if it is really the QC or if counterfeit connectors are also entering the field.
Not all fuses are created equal and may not blow in all circumstances so may not have adequate for the #10 NM

If I didn't know the rating of the equipment to be connected with existing system being #8 even if technically code compliant to extend with the #10 I would have stayed with the #8.
I have yet to see a "temporary" connection truly be temporary once out of my control.
Click to expand...

1732108137013.png
1732108073050.png
 
infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Alwayslearningelec said:
We used romex since it was temp.
Click to expand...
The full load is 24 amps so #10 NM cable is not an issue. Until you can provide more details on what actually happened were all just guessing. It was not the wiring size or the fuse protection. That leaves poor connections or coincidental equipment failure.
 
E

Eddie702

Licensed Electrician
Location
Western Massachusetts
Occupation
Electrician
Even if you moved the disconnect and replaced it with a splice box and ran #10s from the splice box to the relocated disconnect it would be legal under the tap rules IMHO
 
J

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Remember over current protective devices are about protecting the conductors from overheating which could cause a fire.
They are not generally going to prevent fires unless significant current is flowing. Most overheating/poor connections do not draw enough current to cause properly selected protective devices to operate.
 
S

sgtsparky

Member
Location
Dexter, Oregon, USA
I agree with most of the comments that it would be code compliant except.
3 phase denotes commercial or industrial and the Romex would need to be in pipe to be legal emt, pvc or ridgid, a lawyer could use this as a point of sub professional quality and that was the cause of the fire.
Not saying it was but a lawyer would.
 
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