Code Violations.

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Sean134

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I have a 100 amp service #2 AWG with a 200 amp fused disconnect before the meters (3). Off of this disconnect an 11/4 pipe travels 100' thru 2 buildings to hit 2 of the meter sockets feeding 100 amp panels, both of these have nonfused disconnects after there meter.
In this 11/4 pipe we have 3 #3 AWG feeding these services. Nothing is grounded on any of the panels. My question is are you allowed to hit a fused disconnect before the meters or do you need a tap box then feed your meters ,fused disconnect, panels?
 
Wow. At first read it sure looks like an appropriate title... the install seems ripe with violations.
As far a a disconnect ahead of the meters, as far as I know the Code does not directly address this. Many Power Companies do not allow disconnects ahead of the meters (to prevent tampering) and, in certain situations they require one (normally over 250 volts to ground.
That said, a 200 amp disconnect with 200 amp fuses would be over sized for the #2 conductors. Furthermore, the #3 conductors would need to have proper protection (most likely 100 amps but dependent on a number of factors).
200 amp protection would only be allowable if the install met the tap rules in 240.21.

Locally a normal install for this would be tap box, meters, fused disconnect and then feeders to your panels.
 
"I have a 100 amp service #2 AWG with a 200 amp fused disconnect before the meters (3). Off of this disconnect an 11/4 pipe travels 100' thru 2 buildings to hit 2 of the meter sockets feeding 100 amp panels, both of these have nonfused disconnects after there meter.
In this 11/4 pipe we have 3 #3 AWG feeding these services. Nothing is grounded on any of the panels. My question is are you allowed to hit a fused disconnect before the meters or do you need a tap box then feed your meters ,fused disconnect, panels?"

It was not stated what fuses were in the 200 amp fused disconnect, could be 100 amp fuses and then that part would be fine as long as the three services in total calculate to less than 100 amps. When you say nothing is grounded on any of these panels, I'm hoping you mean no grounded conductor (neutral) is used and that service grounding and bonding exists or that is a major problem. As far as the disconnect goes, it appears that there is already a disconnect before the meters (the 200A/100A you stated) but you would have to coordinate that with the utility requirements, should not be an NEC violation. If you splice and continue the #3 wire to each panel from a box, (assuming the calculations and fuses are 100 amps or under in total) you would not need any tap rule and could terminate in main breakers. IMO this is not an ideal setup for the future and would be difficult to add load in the future without the possibility of the main switch tripping the three services, or the ability to obtain loads from other tenants to re-verify the service. You also only mention a feed to two meters through 2 buildings, where is the third? The location of the 3rd meter might be a violation about number of services or services at multiple locations depending on the allowance by the AHJ. Assumptions have been made and hhis is all I can offer with the limited information given.
 
augie47 said:
Wow. At first read it sure looks like an appropriate title... the install seems ripe with violations.
As far a a disconnect ahead of the meters, as far as I know the Code does not directly address this. Many Power Companies do not allow disconnects ahead of the meters (to prevent tampering) and, in certain situations they require one (normally over 250 volts to ground.
That said, a 200 amp disconnect with 200 amp fuses would be over sized for the #2 conductors. Furthermore, the #3 conductors would need to have proper protection (most likely 100 amps but dependent on a number of factors).
200 amp protection would only be allowable if the install met the tap rules in 240.21.

Locally a normal install for this would be tap box, meters, fused disconnect and then feeders to your panels.
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I don't see how the 200A switch fused or otherwise is covered by the code at all, or that even if it had 100A fuses in it that it would meet code for protecting the #3 wires as I am not sure where in the code it says you can put the protection in front of the meter.
 
petersonra said:
I don't see how the 200A switch fused or otherwise is covered by the code at all, or that even if it had 100A fuses in it that it would meet code for protecting the #3 wires as I am not sure where in the code it says you can put the protection in front of the meter.
Click to expand...

I don't know of any Code Articel prohibiting it. Think about all the module meter centers with a Main ahead of them.
 
Sean134 said:
I have a 100 amp service #2 AWG with a 200 amp fused disconnect before the meters (3).
Click to expand...

Ok what are you using to say you have a 100 amp service? in most cases the over current protection device is what determines the size, and it sounds like you have a 200 amp service from the service drop or lateral, wire size can and maybe undersized from the utility as they do not use the NEC when determining the wire size.

Sean134 said:
Off of this disconnect an 11/4" pipe travels 100' thru 2 buildings to hit 2 of the meter sockets feeding 100 amp panels, both of these have nonfused disconnects after there meter.
Click to expand...

Ok this is the problem, the NEC requires a disconnect and over current protection when service conductors enter a structure (230.70) 225.31 requires this if they supply or pass through a structure, now if these wires meet the definition of being outside as per 225.32 which will refer you to 230.6 then this part might be fine (like if they run underground or are enclosed in concrete) if not then it would be required to have Disconnects with over current protection at the point of entrance to the building for the size of the conductors.

Sean134 said:
In this 11/4 pipe we have 3 #3 AWG feeding these services. Nothing is grounded on any of the panels. My question is are you allowed to hit a fused disconnect before the meters or do you need a tap box then feed your meters ,fused disconnect, panels?
Click to expand...

The size of the wire would depend upon the calculated load on each conductor even though it sounds strange a #3 will most likely clear a 200 amp fuse if faulted but overloading can be a problem if a load calculation is not done, 250.118 allows metal conduit to be the grounding path so grounding might not be a problem, but each building served must not only have a disconnect (225.31) but also over current protection for feeders (240)

panels require overcurrent protection (408.36) but this has changed over the code cycles and if only 6 breaker handles are in each panel would be enough that would make it compliant???

Also I see your in Chicago which has its own set of codes the may differ greatly from the NEC so I would refer to it for what may or may not be allowed at the time this building was constructed.
 
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augie47 said:
I don't know of any Code Articel prohibiting it. Think about all the module meter centers with a Main ahead of them.
Click to expand...

I do not think it is prohibited, but I think in the case the OP is asking about it would be allowed but not sufficient to meet all the code requirements.
 
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