Cold Water Grounding Electrode Changeout

Status
Not open for further replies.
R

rwacheson

Member
A little advice would be appreciated:

My house was built in 1956, originally with the (galvanized) cold water pipe as the only grounding electrode (there’s now an 8ft 5/8” ground rod bonded to the service entrance and the cold water pipe). Outlet boxes in the bathrooms and kitchen (but nowhere else) are bonded to the cold water grounding electrode with bare ~18awg (or so) wire.

Here’s the problem: I need to replace the water system, and I’m thinking of using PEX. But, what about the ground? My thought was that I could leave leave the old galvanized pipe in place, with the bonding wires from the outlet boxes connected to it, and make sure there’s continuity to the household ground…or??

Your thoughts and experience would be greatly appreciated.
 
Have an electrician install two ground rods and connect to your service panel.
The electrical ground/ground rods is not that important
 
I would move the bonding jumpers for the receptacles to the GEC. If you leave a complete water piping system that is required to be bonded as well.
 
Chamuit said:
406.4.D.2

Remove the little bond wires. Just re-device.
Click to expand...

In 1956 the NEC had a list of locations requiring an EGC. And Local Ordinance also played a role, although not reliably from location to location. The "reduced gauge" EGC was likely the requirement of the Code in effect during original construction, and will still be correct, as installed, today, with the problem of the cold water pipe becoming nonconductive.

To my mind, the hope is that all the reduced gauge EGC water pipe connections are accessible (accessibility wasn't a requirement, as I recall, until much later). I'd size an extension of the reduced gauge EGC depending upon the branch circuit overcurrent protection rating, and terminate the extension on the Grounding Electrode System, as available.

The galvanized pipe, once abandoned for water, is no longer a "cold water pipe" in my opinion.

If I were doing the work, I'd document the grounded locations before the pex install, and then verify the existence of the grounding after the available EGCs are extended. Any missing locations would require additional attention.
 
tom baker said:
Have an electrician install two ground rods and connect to your service panel.
The electrical ground/ground rods is not that important
Click to expand...

Agree with Tom and I also would install a new 12AWG grounding conductor for those receptacle/s, and take that to the service panel.
 
12AWG grounding conductor

12AWG grounding conductor

"Agree with Tom and I also would install a new 12AWG grounding conductor for those receptacle/s, and take that to the service panel."

I could do as the poster suggests, and run a 12awg ground wire to the receptical, and I've thought that might be an easier way to have all outlets grounded, running insulated ground wires to each outlet in the house (since all my romex is two conductor). However, in a VERY light reading of the code, this doesn't seem to be permissible.
 
In your position I would have to consider saving to rewire house completely... upgrade panels, run new wire, etc...
it is not required, but it would make me sleep better at night if it was my own home...
 
Adamjamma said:
In your position I would have to consider saving to rewire house completely... upgrade panels, run new wire, etc...
it is not required, but it would make me sleep better at night if it was my own home...
Click to expand...
That's pretty extreme with respect to this OP 1956 single family dwelling. . . I mean, really, how many of the plug in loads that you have scattered about in your living areas (bed, den, living room, hallways, closets, dining room, etc.) actually REQUIRE a grounding-type receptacle outlet?

And I'll bet the "living areas" of this one dwelling are constructed of wood, and plaster or drywall, which are nonconductive.

One can actually argue, in this specific situation, that introducing the EGC at above specified receptacles increases electrical hazard.
 
As I said, it is not required.. specifically it is allowed as home was built under the code of the time, but, having been taught what I know, having seen what I have seen, I would personally take it one or two rooms at a time and pull in new wires, add the gfci, and then sleep better at night knowing I had done everything to protect my grandkids when they come over... not required but I would do it...
Would I do a new breaker panel? Possibly not.. would I put in new ground rods if I was installing a pex system to replace the old water system... yes... I would... nad any room I already had walls open for plumbing would definitely get retired to curren standards, such as the new outlet distances and heights...

Again, that is just me... and I am not even certified yet... well, maybe crazy..lol.. but have often tried to exceed code if I thought code was too forgiving...
 
I think he is looking at the idea of running a single conductor in the walls for the ground wire because his original cable is two wire no ground. Which as I read the code myself it seemed to be against. However, when listening to arguments over the placing of neutrals in switch boxes.. the argument was that as long as one could access the cavity either from top or bottom to feed a neutral to the box, or feed through a conduit, one did not need to put the neutral in the box.

seems to me, based upon that argument in the Holt YouTube video, that it must be a loophole as far as feeding either a ground or a neutral to the old boxes, but I just have not read through the code well enough to find it yet. Based on age of home and his description of wiring I am guessing there is no conduits to feed the neutral or ground through. But...
if a neutral can be fed to a switch without having to be inside the original cable assembly, can it then be fed to an outlet box the same way? Then one would make the wire runn8ng with the hot wire in the original assembly the ground wire, and thus fix the problem...
or is there a loophole for adding the ground? Other than using gfci ?

Of course, there is the gfci loophole as well.
 
Instead of rewiring older systems, isn't it a common practice to install a single EGC in the crawl space and bond it to an acceptable location on the grounding system in order to provide a properly wired three prong receptacle?
 
Adamjamma said:
I think he is looking at the idea of running a single conductor in the walls for the ground wire because his original cable is two wire no ground. Which as I read the code myself it seemed to be against. However, when listening to arguments over the placing of neutrals in switch boxes.. the argument was that as long as one could access the cavity either from top or bottom to feed a neutral to the box, or feed through a conduit, one did not need to put the neutral in the box.

seems to me, based upon that argument in the Holt YouTube video, that it must be a loophole as far as feeding either a ground or a neutral to the old boxes, but I just have not read through the code well enough to find it yet. Based on age of home and his description of wiring I am guessing there is no conduits to feed the neutral or ground through. But...
if a neutral can be fed to a switch without having to be inside the original cable assembly, can it then be fed to an outlet box the same way? Then one would make the wire runn8ng with the hot wire in the original assembly the ground wire, and thus fix the problem...
or is there a loophole for adding the ground? Other than using gfci ?

Of course, there is the gfci loophole as well.
Click to expand...

Read 250.130(C) for running a separate EGC. Neutrals are different.
 
Am I reading that correctly as it seems that, from over an hour of reading, one can run from the panel using separate conductor for ground, if conductor is protected, or is at least a number 6, and as long as it is insulated...
or if the building contains an electrode ring, or a metal water system within the building, it can be used AS the grounding conductor and can be bonded to,
or one can bond from the outlet to a building part that is properly bonded to the Grounding Electrode System,

Or one can use a GFCI and create a ground substitute system from that point but has to label it as doing so.
.
.
.
but, officially it does not allow running the ground wire separate yet says that it may as an exception,

or have I totally gone wrong again?

And where is the exception to neutrals? only in switches? Because I still think that is a possible route, though as stated earlier, I would consider, especially in any areas I already had opened up to switch to PEX pipe or to do other work, that I might as well upgrade the wiring since it is opened up. That means new wire, grounded outlets with TR style outlets, etc...
But.. I do not see the requirement to do so, either, as building was built properly originally, so ... under code, only the changes to the grounding system need dealt with...
 
Adamjamma said:
Am I reading that correctly as it seems that, from over an hour of reading, one can run from the panel using separate conductor for ground, if conductor is protected, or is at least a number 6, and as long as it is insulated...
or if the building contains an electrode ring, or a metal water system within the building, it can be used AS the grounding conductor and can be bonded to,
or one can bond from the outlet to a building part that is properly bonded to the Grounding Electrode System,

Or one can use a GFCI and create a ground substitute system from that point but has to label it as doing so.

but, officially it does not allow running the ground wire separate yet says that it may as an exception,

or have I totally gone wrong again?

.
Click to expand...

Forget about the neutral for this discussion.

Please read the following in order and nothing else for now. It applies to two prong receptacle replacement and existing wiring only.

406.4(C)
406.4(D)(1) and (2)
250.130

What does each section tell you?
 
Last edited:
jumper said:
Forget about the neutral for this discussion.

Please read the following in order and nothing else for now. It applies to two prong receptacle replacement and existing wiring only.

406.4(C)
406.4(D)(1) and (2)
250.130

What does each section tell you?
Click to expand...
What I am still reading is that one can run a separate ground from the panel to the outlets as long as one can protect it or it is run within the building, and if not possible to run direct to main panel, but you have source of ground nearby such as metallic water pipe, metallic parts of building, or grounding electrode ring, that are bonded to the main grounding electrode elsewhere, you may bond to one of them from the outlet. You may also bond to a nearby grounding conductor that runs to the main panel even if it is not of the same circuit.
but, if none of these means are met then you either replace with non grounded outlets or use a gfci outlet and label with no ground label, or use new outlets but label with no ground label.
if using no ground label then you do not connect a ground from there if extending circuits.. no ground means no ground.
 
Adamjamma said:
........ metallic water pipe, metallic parts of building, or grounding electrode ring, that are bonded to the main grounding electrode elsewhere, you may bond to one of them from the outlet............
Click to expand...

The bonding of the receptacle grounding to the metallic water piping system has to be within 5' of where it enters to the building.
 
Adamjamma said:
What I am still reading is that one can run a separate ground from the panel to the outlets as long as one can protect it or it is run within the building, and if not possible to run direct to main panel, but you have source of ground nearby such as metallic water pipe, metallic parts of building, or grounding electrode ring, that are bonded to the main grounding electrode elsewhere, you may bond to one of them from the outlet. You may also bond to a nearby grounding conductor that runs to the main panel even if it is not of the same circuit.

You may run the EGC to any of the places specified in 250.130(C).

but, if none of these means are met then you either replace with non grounded outlets or use a gfci outlet and label with no ground label, or use new outlets but label with no ground label.

Yes, yes, no. You may not replace a non- grounding receptacle with a grounding type and just label it “ No Ground” unless GFCI protected.

if using no ground label then you do not connect a ground from there if extending circuits.. no ground means no ground.

You may not extend ungrounded circuits and install receptacles, GFCI protected ones included
Click to expand...

Answers above in red.

Adam you have been here for awhile, so I think you really should clean up your typing with better grammar, punctuation, and spacing. Your posts like the above are really hard to read, which makes understanding them difficult.

No one expects perfect writing by any means but you could do better. I have seen your posts when you get serious, you are easily capable of putting a little more effort into your writing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top