Column wall space?

[bphgravity]

A local builder scheduled a rough inspection of a new single family home. The living and family area is a large 35' by 30' room with a large 12" column directly in the middle acting as a separation point for the two areas.

Some of my colleges feel that the column does not require a receptacle as no one side is at least 2' in width to qualify it as wall space. Others feel that section 210.52(A)(2)(1) clearly indicates a freestanding column of 12' on one side represents 4' of wall space. In effect, a column larger than 6" on all 4 sides is at least 2' of wall space

What is your say?

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Column wall space?

Well I think, you got them Inspector..210.52(A)(2)~Wall Space.

 

[iwire]

Re: Column wall space?

My first thought when I read your post was no, but then looking at 210.52(A)(2)(1)

(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:

(1)Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings

I changed my mind. The fact that it specifically says including space measured around corners makes me believe this 12" square column is required to have a receptacle.

FWIW IMO it would be a poor choice not to have an outlet there.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Column wall space?

Is it possible that there is two walls present one for the living area and the other for the family area?

Would not one room claim half and the other claims the other half?

Is it possible that this installation would call for two receptacles?

How say ye one, how say ye all?

 

[iwire]

Re: Column wall space?

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Would not one room claim half and the other claims the other half?

Is it possible that this installation would call for two receptacles?

How say ye one, how say ye all?

 

[infinity]

Re: Column wall space?

So if the column were round and had a circumference of 4' it still would not require an outlet since there are no corners to measure around?

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

I think, again, this might be a case where special permission should be applied.

Will the people who own such a space really string extension cords all over this area . If they were to do that, wouldn't they also do the same thing from the column.

Again, I don't like the NEC cookie cutter approach to architecture and building design. I think 210.52(A)(2) completly misses the point here.

Edit: Yeah, I think I have to agree with Bob that at first I thought it wouldn't count as wall space but looking closer I think it does count.

[ August 12, 2005, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[marinesgt0411]

Re: Column wall space?

Websters dictionary of the English language

Wall: A vertical structure of stone, brick, wood, or other materials which serves to enclose a space, form a division, SUPPORT SUPERINCUMBENT WEIGHTS, retain earth or water, or perform similar functions:

so a column is a wall because it supports weight

 

[curt swartz]

Re: Column wall space?

I can already hear the interior designer?s comments when I tell them I?m going to cut receptacles into their fancy columns.

What if these columns separate the living room from the dining room?

 

[apauling]

Re: Column wall space?

this is almost like saying that the space behind the sink is wall space. This is one of those that i would always forget to call, no matter how many times i was reminded. does your inspector measure in and out of the trim where walls are just under 2'? I personally find it absurd that an inspector would call it.

paul

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Column wall space?

Yeh,could be seen as kinda petty.But from the standpoint of the NFPA 70,wording exsist supporting, the inspectors stance.

I don't know if he'd call on it.But rather, he asking for opinion supporting-(in whats your say)-based on the NEC.Seems his office seen fit let it pass.

On the otherhand,I have seen tape footage in classroom, on dwelling inspections. Where the poor contractor called for a inspection and the jurisdiction scrutinized the contractors. Just for the sake of the educational classroom tape purpose,in the dwelling inspections.Enjoyable to watch for educational purpose,but sad to say at others expense.


Of course the contractors were not present,but inspections and work, were real and from their jurisdiction,

Guess it just depends on the given day,and the individual inspecting,and factor of his demeanor at given time.But we all know that.

[ August 12, 2005, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Column wall space?

Originally posted by curt swartz:
I can already hear the interior designer?s comments when I tell them I?m going to cut receptacles into their fancy columns.

A floor receptacle within 18" of the column would suffice.

 

[apauling]

Re: Column wall space?

I think the problem is the definition of "wall space". Railings are considered wall space, but i would still find it difficult to call a column "wall" space. At 12" it is less likely even to have furniture next to it. The 24" space is explained as supporting some type of furniture in the handbook.

paul

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Column wall space?

Paul,
Do you mean in the "blue box commentary"?

In this same box:
*The word usable does not appear at all in 210.52 as a condition for determining compliance with the receptacle spacing requirements.
-Now-
*refering to the front of handbook..
The commentary and supplementary materials in this handbook are not part of the code and do not constitute Formal Interpretations of the NFPA.

The commentary and supplementary materials,therefore,solely reflect the personal opinions of the editor or other contributors and do not necessarily represent the official position of the NFPA or its technical committees..

 

[apauling]

Re: Column wall space?

gee! i didn't know that. :roll: :roll:

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Column wall space?

Sam I have run into this same situs=ation 4 colums 2 face d/r 2 face fam rm..One insp started the measurement from 1st corner as to enter the area and wrapped around for a total of 25 in tag other measured thye side facing the room 12 1/2.
Are you sure my inspectors aren` t moving closer to you

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

All I know Allen is that peppering buildings with receptacles isn't automatically intelligent.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Column wall space?

I can't reply. I am laughing to hard at how many ways this can be twisted.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Column wall space?

First, I'll agree with somebody, so I will appear to look like I am trying to pretend to be a team player. ) that a receptacle outlet would be a good idea. If it were made of stone, and not hollow, then you can't put a receptacle outlet on the column itself (without making it look ugly), and you would have no reasonable choice but to use a floor receptacle within 18 inches. (See, now I am agreeing with LarryFine ).

OK. No more pretext of promoting the consensus.

There is no way I would call a column a "wall," for the purposes of the NEC or for the purposes of an architectural description, despite all the (generally reasonable) reasons given so far. Even the definition that was quoted from Webster's dictionary does not sway my opinion. All I have to do to counter that argument is to take note that we do not know this column is a "load-bearing element." I strongly suspect that it is not.

210.52(A) is talking about walls. You don't get to ask, "is this wall wide enough to need a receptacle," unless you first determine that the thing you are looking at is, indeed, a wall. If you show me a column, then I will not see a wall. The bit about "including corners" only applies to the corner between one wall and another wall.

The code does not explicitly say, "(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space means a part of a wall, and shall include the following. . . ." Nevertheless, I am confident that we can all interpret "wall space" to mean "space that is part of a wall." So first show me a wall, and then we can measure it together, and figure out if it needs a receptacle.

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

Is everybody using 2005 now?

My 210.52(A)(2) doesn't say the same thing as yours Charlie.

Mine says:

As used in this section, a wall spcae shall include the following:

Edit: Scott, this ins't funny.

[ August 15, 2005, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: physis ]