Combination AFCI Breakers ??

[Buck Parrish]

How many people think the Combination AFCI breakers are GFCI and AFCI, together in one breaker ?

 

[electricmanscott]

Many who are misinformed.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

How many people think the Combination AFCI breakers are GFCI and AFCI, together in one breaker ?

I have corrected 50 EC about that issue since Jan1,2008. I think most know the difference around here.

 

[LLSolutions]

Heard that one quite few times

 

[Karl H]

When it comes to the signature of Ground Fault vs Arc Fault in a

wave form. The difference is significant. From what I've seen, it's not

all "Smoke and Mirrors" like a lot of people think.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

When it comes to the signature of Ground Fault vs Arc Fault in a

wave form. The difference is significant. From what I've seen, it's not

all "Smoke and Mirrors" like a lot of people think.

A ground fault device does not even look at a wave form. It just looks for current that is flowing where it shouldn't. However it is my opinion that the vast majority of AFCI trips are really trips initiated by the built in ground fault protection and not the fancy arc signature detection. Especially given the fact that the GFP trips at about 30mA and the device doesn't even look at the arc unless the current exceeds 5 amps.

 

[macmikeman]

What I do think about combination ark-fault circuit breakers is they need to shrink them thar combination ark-fault circuit breakers down in size a bit. Thats what I really think about them. They mess up my tidy panel wiring jobs, and with the Cutler ones, they get pretty close to the neutral busbars on the terminal ends they are so long.

 

[Karl H]

A ground fault device does not even look at a wave form. It just looks for current that is flowing where it shouldn't. However it is my opinion that the vast majority of AFCI trips are really trips initiated by the built in ground fault protection and not the fancy arc signature detection. Especially given the fact that the GFP trips at about 30mA and the device doesn't even look at the arc unless the current exceeds 5 amps.

Yes I should have been more clear .Ground Fault senses current .

Arc Fault monitors the wave form, looking for alterations in the wave form that

are a "SIgnature"of an ARC Fault.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Yes I should have been more clear .Ground Fault senses current .

Arc Fault monitors the wave form, looking for alterations in the wave form that

are a "SIgnature"of an ARC Fault.

it's an interesting experiment.... take a load on a afci, say 10 amps or so,
and open up a wirenut, so you can draw an arc under load.... according
to the theory, the arc fault circuit interrupter should interrupt the arc....

i've been able to pull a 3/16" arc without tripping one.... the only thing
i've found will reliably trip one is the little button on the idiot plug...:roll:

it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling..... knowing that the same people
who brought you the volstead act, 300 pound auto bumpers, and oil
import quotas are doing their best to keep your receptacles from
sizzling.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

it's an interesting experiment.... take a load on a afci, say 10 amps or so,
and open up a wirenut, so you can draw an arc under load.... according
to the theory, the arc fault circuit interrupter should interrupt the arc....

i've been able to pull a 3/16" arc without tripping one.... the only thing
i've found will reliably trip one is the little button on the idiot plug...:roll:

The actual information on the arc signature that the AFCI looks for is proprietary and different for each manufacturer. That being said, it has to see the signature for 8 half cycles out of 12 or something like that and there has to be a load of at least five amps. A hand generated arc could start and stop and not meet the required trip criteria.

 

[electrojet]

Combination AFCI Breakers

Combination AFCI Breakers

My understanding is that a "combination" AFCI is one that detects down stream "series" and "parallel" arc faults.

A "series" arc is defined as an arc or voltage spike on a single wire, such as on a lamp cord, due to either a break in an energized wire or from a metal object such as a nail puncturing the insulation and causing an arc on an energized wire.

A "parallel" arc occurs across two adjacent wires such as when insulation is compromised and allows the energized wires to come in contact with eachother and cause a voltage spike.



Electrojet

 

[don_resqcapt19]

A series arc is an arc between two sections of the same conductor. A switch is an example of a series arc. Any arc from one conductor to another conductor is a parallel arc or a ground fault.

 

[electrojet]

arc faults

arc faults

Thanks, that confirms what I said in my posting.....

Electrojet