Commercial Kitchen or not?

[sfav8r]

We are doing a job that is in a buliding that has commercial on the first floor and residential on the two upper floors. The owner is remodeling the commercial space, and as part of that rmodel they are adding a kitchen area. MY question is, if this is considered a commercial space, I assume the residential kitchen requirements of 210.52(A)3 do not apply. If they do not apply, are there seperate requirements for the "commercial" kitchen?

Thanks.

 

[charlie b]

I think you meant (B)(3). Point in fact, 210.52 does not apply, since you are not dealing with a dwelling unit. I don't think there are any rules that tell you where you have to put receptacles in a commercial kitchen. But if you do have them, then 210.8(B)(2) says they must be GFCI.

 

[inspector23]

We are doing a job that is in a buliding that has commercial on the first floor and residential on the two upper floors. The owner is remodeling the commercial space, and as part of that rmodel they are adding a kitchen area. MY question is, if this is considered a commercial space, I assume the residential kitchen requirements of 210.52(A)3 do not apply. If they do not apply, are there seperate requirements for the "commercial" kitchen?

Thanks.

You are correct in assuming that 210.53(A) 3 does not apply, per 210.52(A). Don't forget your GFCI requirements for commercial kitchen receptacles, even emergency lighting receptacles. 210.8 (B)

(edit) I gotta learn to type faster............... good job, Charlie

 

[sfav8r]

I think you meant (B)(3).

I did mean (B)(3). My fingers just don't listen sometimes.

Thanks for the quick replies.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Your in for a fun ride.As stated its not residential.Now fun begins.What exactly are they building and is it a a kitchen or simply a break room or is it like one of what i just had and is a model display for custom homes in a commercial building that displays several kitchens with one active (nightmare)

 

[e57]

I will also ditto up on the 210.52 not applying to the commercial areas. As well as the GFI requirements. But will also remind you that if you have guys with a "Residential Certification" under our ridiculous state laws, that they are no longer allowed to work on the service, feeders, or any common area circuits as they are no longer worthy of even looking at such things.

Residential Electrician is one who:

(1) performs work for an electrical contractor installing, constructing, or maintaining any electrical system that is covered by the National Electrical Code in single family homes and multi family units, including hotels and motels, where the primary occupancy of the building is considered residential and the maximum voltage received from a utility company is a 3 phase, 4 wire, 120/208 or 120/240 volts.

(2) performs work installing the required panel boards and feeders for commercial tenant space in a multi-family/multi-use occupancies falling under subsection (b)(1) above, where less than 50 percent of the first floor level is used for commercial tenant space, but not performing any tenant improvement for these spaces.

(3) does not perform work in occupancies that fall under the scope of Article 517 of the National Electrical Code.

ref: http://www.dir.ca.gov/t8/290_1.html

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I will also ditto up on the 210.52 not applying to the commercial areas. As well as the GFI requirements. But will also remind you that if you have guys with a "Residential Certification" under our ridiculous state laws, that they are no longer allowed to work on the service, feeders, or any common area circuits as they are no longer worthy of even looking at such things.


ref: http://www.dir.ca.gov/t8/290_1.html

I think that is a positive limit.Wish we had any kind of limits here.Here i could turn a 1 week greenie on to any job i wanted to trust him with.Fl no longer requires anything other than master to pull a permit and they need never even see or bid the job

 

[inspector23]

I will also ditto up on the 210.52 not applying to the commercial areas. As well as the GFI requirements. But will also remind you that if you have guys with a "Residential Certification" under our ridiculous state laws, that they are no longer allowed to work on the service, feeders, or any common area circuits as they are no longer worthy of even looking at such things.


ref: http://www.dir.ca.gov/t8/290_1.html

We have absolutely no enforcement of the electrical certification license in our jurisdiction in Southern California. Truely a joke, in my opinion. Started out in 1999 as a law backed by the union, to bring a certain level of minimum stardards to installers. It was watered down and postponed yearly until last year when it finally went into effect. But there are no provisions, or money, or even assigned jurisdictional authority to enforce.

Most of the track hacks here have never even heard of the "requirement" to be licensed.

This hit a nerve with me, as you can tell by my ranting. We now return you to your previously scheduled programming.

 

[e57]

You are an electrician or you are not IMO. And FYI the only enforcemant state wide on this is only prevailing wage work. I just figured I would bring it up as it one of our new laws. 51% commercial on the first floor means some guys can't work.... But at five stories, or building type change they need to pipe and MC all the work...

 

[inspector23]

You are an electrician or you are not IMO. And FYI the only enforcemant state wide on this is only prevailing wage work. I just figured I would bring it up as it one of our new laws. 51% commercial on the first floor means some guys can't work.... But at five stories, or building type change they need to pipe and MC all the work...

I am not sure I follow your point. Are you say if you call yourself an electrican than you are an electrician?????

Some of these structures will be here 40-70 years from now. I would hope municipalities could come to some concensus for the qualifications of the installers where improper materials/or installations could result in loss of life. That is what we are suppossed to be doing - protecting the public.

 

[e57]

I am not sure I follow your point. Are you say if you call yourself an electrican than you are an electrician?????

Some of these structures will be here 40-70 years from now. I would hope municipalities could come to some concensus for the qualifications of the installers where improper materials/or installations could result in loss of life. That is what we are suppossed to be doing - protecting the public.

My point was about our recent seperation of General Electrician, and Residential Electrician in our recently enacted Certification laws. Prior to 2006/7 that seperation did not exist here. And if you can read a code book and understand it, it should not be much of a reach to think you can not understand all of it. The NFPA puts out only one NEC every cycle... And we use the same tools to make nearly the same connections... Are the wire nuts different? I use pipe and MC in residential all the time... (Locally I'm not allowed to use NM in commercial, but in many places you can.) I do Commercial Services and Residential Services all the time, often the only difference is the size. Do they use a different type of obscure math for the calculations for either/or? IMO if you can take one test, you can take them both. Why not just have one test?

 

[inspector23]

My point was about our recent seperation of General Electrician, and Residential Electrician in our recently enacted Certification laws. Prior to 2006/7 that seperation did not exist here. And if you can read a code book and understand it, it should not be much of a reach to think you can not understand all of it. The NFPA puts out only one NEC every cycle... And we use the same tools to make nearly the same connections... Are the wire nuts different? I use pipe and MC in residential all the time... (Locally I'm not allowed to use NM in commercial, but in many places you can.) I do Commercial Services and Residential Services all the time, often the only difference is the size. Do they use a different type of obscure math for the calculations for either/or? IMO if you can take one test, you can take them both. Why not just have one test?

OK, now I understand better. The reason for three tests, as it was explained to me by the California Division of Industrial Relations, (DIR) is so tract ?electricians? would not have to know any calculation issues. The argument was the ?ropers? did not need to know any calculations. If you look at the outline for the test questions, the residential test does not have any motor questions, and only one ? very general ? calculation question. Cal DIR wanted to make sure the ?ropers? could pass the exam. BTW, the DIR office itself will tell you there is NO enforcement procedures in place. The unions won the battle (certification for electricians) but lost the war (certification is so diluted and unaccountable it is worthless). The exam fees go to help defray the cost to DIR of running the program.

California has a lot of progressive social programs, but construction safety and relegation issues are dictated by the big dollars of developers ? and it is a glaring weakness.

OK, my blood is pumping now! Sorry, but this issue really hits home with me. Some of my inspections are $800K tract (3500 sf) homes ( NOT customs!) , and you would not believe the struggles to enforce the minimum electrical standards. Sub panels in clothes closets in bedrooms. They call it a ?storage? closet. It?s the only closet in the bedroom. They do not provide a bar for hanging clothes, therefore it is ?storage?. I won that one, but they called the Building Official, involved a member of Council, and threatened to sue me personally for delaying their project. All because they put a sub panel in a clothes closet.

Better quit now ? my brain tells me it time to head to my ?happy place!? ha-ha

 

[dab]

school never failed me

school never failed me

if you don't have the hours of experience in the catagory and can't pass an open code book test, then maybe you shouldn't have worked for CASH. without paying your dues or taxes you just screwed yourself. insofar as not being able to pass the test, this might just mean you did not attend any formal training of any kind. sort of why i find so many things to fix up here in n. calif. i looked at it like this. go to school; get a job; get a career;live happily ever after; retire; keep living happily ever after..........