Common area lighting

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brother

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I have a friend that has a duplex that he claims was remolded in 1995. His duplex is an 'upstairs and downstairs' type building. The stairwell/hallway (seems to be a common area) lighting seems to be on the same circuits as one of the units. One of is tenants, (a DIFFICULT ONE) is complaining about them having to pay for the hall way lighting, (which is only 2 light bulbs :roll: )

I told him this was against code (didnt mean to scare him) because common area lights are suppose to be a on seperate service. I wasnt sure when this rule came into effect. I checked out some of the old code books, I was curious as to when did this come into effect?? :?:

He claims when it was remodeled that it passed inspection and he has the records. It was bought this way by him in 2000. So i think he should be ok for now, but just curious as to when did it go into effect?? :?
 
Brother,

Thanks, I cannot provide any information as to when this first came into the code, but it seems to me that complying with 210.25 in a duplex situation is difficult and not practical. I had a similar situation where I did an upstairs/downstairs duplex. The utility room and garage are on the owners panel, but the tenant can access their unit by passing thru the garage and utility room. Should I have used an additional meter and service just to supply the utility room and garage lights? 210.25 would seem to imply that but I am not sure that is what the intent was. I would be curious what others have to say about this.
 
One inspector I know says he'll accept separate circuits from each unit in a duplex to the common area. That way each of them can control lighting. He also says that if there is enough controversy, the tenants steal the light bulbs anyway. In his opinion there is no way to keep everyone happy all the time.
 
I had a similar situation where I did an upstairs/downstairs duplex. The utility room and garage are on the owners panel, but the tenant can access their unit by passing thru the garage and utility room. Should I have used an additional meter and service just to supply the utility room and garage lights? 210.25 would seem to imply that but I am not sure that is what the intent was
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From what i understand from this intent, (when i read the NEC Handbook both the 2005 and 2002), This was to prevent some critical or safety, public access areas from being accidently or intentionally turned off by the tenants.

Such as the septic tanks, if used, and security lights in the common areas that is not for the tenants exclusive use. So as for your case with the owner i dont think this would be much of a problem as the OWNER is paying for it anyways.

since in other situations you would have tenants paying for the electric to their own unit, if they get behind or dont pay the utilities this could affect the other tenants in the building especially if its a circuit for alarms and septic tanks or just the lighting. :cry: I can see someone falling down the stairs and claim it was because of the lighting not being able to see. :shock: :roll:

Im not claiming that this is practical, cause i would not want to install another meter just for 2 light bulbs :!: :shock: :roll: , but according to the code and their INTENT (at least my understanding of it from the NEC Handbook go read it and let me know what you think) you would have to do this for all common areas in 2 familys and up. Thanks for the response. :D
 
Heres what the NEC Handbook specifically says in its comments on article 210.25 Common Area Branch Circuits. :) Whats your opinion?


Not only does 210.25 prohibit branch circuits from feeding more than dwelling unit. it also prohibits the sharing of systems, equipment, or common lighting if that equipment is fed from any of the dwelling units. the systems equipment or lighting for public or common areas is required to be supplied from a separate "house load" panelboard.
This requirement permits access to the branchcircuit disconnecting means without the need to enter the space of any tenants. The requirement also prevents a tenant from turning off important circuits that may affect other tenants.
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The city of cleveland is full of 2&3 family dwellings. We were allowed to install 1 light from each unit where needed including basements. :)
 
Re: Common area lighting

brother said:
I One of is tenants, (a DIFFICULT ONE) is complaining about them having to pay for the hall way lighting, (which is only 2 light bulbs :roll: )
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Having been a LL for a number of years (and still today), I can understand what the tenant's complaint is.
Do I agree with the complaint? No
What would I suggest to the tenant? Pay the rent as agreed (aka, perform on the contract) or move - WITH proper notice.


brother said:
I told him this was against code (didnt mean to scare him) because common area lights are suppose to be a on seperate service. I wasnt sure when this rule came into effect. I checked out some of the old code books, I was curious as to when did this come into effect?? :?:
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This may/may not be an NEC code violation (I went back as far as '99...my '96 and '93 books are MIA/still packed in boxes from moving in 2003 :) ) - depending on WHEN the lighting was installed.

If it was like that prior to the renov., it may not even be a violation; also dependant on what code the building was built under (50's 60's???) and to what extent the renov. encompassed (25%...80% renovated???).



It is likely a violation of LL/T laws...BUT - depending on the many various factors, the tenant is likely SOL on the complaint issue.

In NJ, most of the LL/T laws do NOT apply to owner occupied dwellings of 3 units or less and,usually, property is rented in an "as is" condition...but I do not know what state your are in.
If you want an honest, no bones about it answer to the LL/T law question...try the forum over at www.mrlandlord.com. (Unless you are in NJ, that I can do here)


brother said:
He claims when it was remodeled that it passed inspection and he has the records. It was bought this way by him in 2000. So i think he should be ok for now, but just curious as to when did it go into effect?? :?
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I think you are right :)
 
In this particular circumstance, the landlord doesn't really have any reason to remodel an existing building for this, IMO.

However, in a new construction situation, the common area load would require a house panel, regardless of the fact that the common load is 2 bulbs.

It becomes a good idea for the architect to avoid creating common areas, in that case.

Without seeing the building in the flesh, it becomes difficult to come up with clever solutions to illuminate a non-common area, and accidentally get the common area lit up in the process. :D
 
In this particular circumstance, the landlord doesn't really have any reason to remodel an existing building for this, IMO.
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I agree. This building was remodeled from the studs in 1995 he claims. New insulation, power panel, plumbing, etc.. So im thinking it would fall under the 1993 code (in which i think this rule was in effect), and even then If the city signed it off I see no reason for a him to have a problem. :x

His place is located in washington state, outside of seattle thank God. :D (Seattle has some funny landlord tenant rules)

I told him dont worry about it, and if the tenant wants to be DIFFICULT just let them move!! :evil: They rented it as is , and its not your fault about the lighting especially since it passed inspection.

Without seeing the building in the flesh, it becomes difficult to come up with clever solutions to illuminate a non-common area, and accidentally get the common area lit up in the process
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Well the way this house was remodeled , i really dont see a a way they couldve got a around it, especially to maximize space. Thanks for the input.

Ill keep this in mind if i ever have to remodeled a house and have common area lighting. :wink: I dont want to deal with a tenant that thinks im cheating them by have a having a 2 bulbs comming off their panel to light up a common area. :roll:
 
I dealt with a situation last year in which an attorney friend of mine needed some work done in a rental unit. He had what he termed a "professional tenant". Someone who moves in, doesn't pay the rent, and knows the laws about how to not get evicted. It took about 2 years to finally get him out.

One of the things I learned is that in MA the Health Code has no "grandfathering" for when something was built. They have requirements for GFCI protection, bath fans, covered and working light fixtures, and Landlord meters, to name a few. And guess what, you can't evict a tenant from any occupancy while there are violations.

This tenant actually would create violations and cal board of health for inspection. Of course they went to court many times and he was finally evicted.
 
This tenant actually would create violations and cal board of health for inspection. Of course they went to court many times and he was finally evicted.
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Thats just ridicuoulous, :evil: :!: IN a pro-tenant state like MA, I can see that foolishness happening. I have rentals also, and I can see how tenants play games. thats why its good to screen well and be on your p's and q's. :x
Some landlord tenant laws are just too whoped sided,. :evil: :shock:

Well i stop for now, i know this is an ELECTIRCAL FORUM and NOT a LANDLORD TENANT forum. :D
 
Re: Common area lighting

I don't believe I have anything to add about this particular situation but speaking about common area lighting in general, the part of 210.25 that says "or loads associated with that unit" would allow separate lights in the common area [lights in the same area but controlled separately] that are controlled by switches inside each unit. If there is a desire for 3way lighting, radio switch units can be bought that stay in the tenants car [like a garage door opener control] and communicate with the hardwired wall switch inside the tenant unit.

If there's a problem with bulb theft, you can hide a mini camera and turn over the resulting tape to the cops.

David
 
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