Communication run 1300 feet

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Fordean

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Have a job, We are looking at. The Run is 1300 feet underground Connecting two buildings.

Connecting 10 Printers/Fax ( Voice connections/ Analog)
to another building. Where I guess the Headend is for complex. Someone ran Unshielded cable, 24 gauge 25 pair (CMP) between the 2 buildings and it does not work ( Note, Besides unshielded. They did not run UG =underground type cable.) But in any event the signal must not be going thru due to long distance. I am scoping a 18 gauge cable UG rated /shielded. To replace the situation. Problem is will it work or will there be a similar Voltdrop/signal loss. It will be somewhat better but to what extent.

I've tried the Tech lines on Belken, Southwire. For help but they ask to refer to printer manufacturer for the Rating on the Com Link, (Lexmark xm7155 Printer) But Lexmark tech cant help either. ( they say ask wire company tech) Typical ping pong situation. Cable Is about $ 6000.00 So I want to get it right.

Will this work at all, All tech help til now, Does not satisfy a functional system. Looking for more advice or input. Or Avenues to research.
 
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luckylerado

luckylerado

Senior Member
Location
Lake of the Ozarks
Fiber would be best and probably a lot cheaper if there is existing FOC infrastructure.

2nd best; Put a quarter of that 6K towards a wireless gizmo.

You cant just upsize the wire and make it work.
 
petersonra

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
You mention both printers and voice.

One might be inclined to expect the voice/analog lines to work in such a configuration.

If the printer lines are ethernet, you are way over the limit for copper lines. The spec says 100 meters and that is about what it will do. Probably have to run fiber. 1300 feet of fiber is not all that simple either.
 
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zbang

Senior Member
Location
Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
Yes, the OP doesn't tell what signaling is on the wires (a POTS line is fine over 1300'), but to replace that much copper with new copper now doesn't make much sense unless it's only carrying POTS or you have proper line drivers at each end (i.e. RS-485 lines).

Install fiber with spare strands and get the right terminal & interface equipment. You'll also get lightning/surge protection on the line and remove a metallic path between the buildings.
 
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zbang

Senior Member
Location
Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
luckylerado said:
Should not need to for POTs over 24gage at 1300'
Click to expand...

Yep, real POTS is fine over 13000' of 24g. I suspect that the voice/fax lines mentioned are either not real POTS from a proper phone switch but rather they're from an ATA or electronic key system that isn't using 48v. Some ATAs only supply the line at 12v, and with a bit of drop, some devices won't think there's an actual line connected.

First check- what's the open circuit voltage involved? What's the voltage when the far end goes "off hook"?
 
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dfmischler

Senior Member
Location
Western NY
Occupation
Facilities Manager
I thought the days of just pulling 25-pair cable between buildings were over. Modern business systems, VOIP, etc. mostly want ethernet connectivity. Fiber is generally the best option for the kind of distance you are talking about.

I would start by trying to talk to the guy who designed/specified the communications run. Try to find out what he was thinking and how the cable was going to be used. It might only take 5 minutes for you to discover that the "designer" had no clue about how to make this work. OTOH, he may be able to show you the details of how and why the 25 pair cable was spec'ed. He might even know somebody with the right equipment to find faults in the cable (e.g. telephone line analyzer).

The question is going to be, if the specifier had no clue how to make the system work over the 25-pair cable, are you comfortable being involved in straightening out the mess?
 
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Fordean

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Im am definitely not comfortable, And would not just take someones money and put wrong equipment in. That why Im asking. I am asking everyone for more info, But I don't believe they know whats going on. They are the IT guys on site. And take care of 1000 computers and such, But when it comes to Interlinking this stuff I am not sure of the Expertise,


According to IT
Connection is a RJ 6 type, which can be a 4 wire, BUT He states he is using FAX portion only which requires only 2 wires Run between buildings. The cable now installed is definitely incorrect. 1300 feet unshielded CMP 25 pair underground, ( this is not Underground cable nor shielding).

When first installed never functioned. Maybe Tore or stretched due to poor choice pulling thru 4 inch pvc then Being ty wrap to metal joists above lighting ( flourescents ) When it did not work, He put a regular phone analog connected to the 2 wired pair. He hears nothing but Buzzing..

Question one . Analoge type signal? What type of signal first of all is this. ??????????

Going call my Verizon buddies next but have not spoken to them in years.

Is this noise from being unshielded, Being installed underground unshielded, ( Does not have the chemical in cable to prevent moisture), length of cable at 24 awg, ? I will talk about fiber in next reply but lets keeps it to copper for now.
 
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zbang

Senior Member
Location
Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
Fordean said:
According to IT, Connection is a RJ 6 type,
Click to expand...
There is no official RJ-6, but there is an RJ-26X (basically a 25pr connector); tells nothing about how the pairs are used.

Fordean said:
When first installed never functioned. Maybe Tore or stretched due to poor choice pulling thru 4 inch pvc then Being ty wrap to metal joists above lighting ( flourescents ) When it did not work, He put a regular phone analog connected to the 2 wired pair. He hears nothing but Buzzing..
.......
Is this noise from being unshielded,
Click to expand...

Analog phone lines are effectively a balanced line; they're not very sensitive to induced noise but it can happen. OTOH a ground somewhere along the line can buzz like an <XXX>. (But an open-circuit will sound different that one with a switch/talk-battery at the far end.) From what you're telling us, it's likely that the cable is badly damaged. Should be replaced with real outside plant/underground cable, but it doesn't need to be shielded. It would help to know what's supplying the fax lines- are they real 48v POTS lines or something else. Just stick a volt meter on one and see.

And... even underground, you'll want grounded surge suppressors where it enters each building. If you're not familiar with telco outside-plant practices, you might want to pass this off to someone who is.
 
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GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
The hum/noise could be the result of an open wire in the pair, or it could be the result of two wires being used which do not constitute a twisted pair. A lot of people do not realize what the color coding is for pairs within the 25 pair cable and end up using red/white and green/white as a "pair".

If it is a broken wire, there should be 24 spare pairs in the cable to try out while waiting for the right stuff to be pulled.
 
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GrayHair

Senior Member
Location
Nashville, TN
I'm in agreement with the suggestions for fiber. Once it's in place, they'll soon use any fiber left dark! Fiber also provides electrical isolation between buildings and systems.

Just a few considerations and questions I would get answered:
  1. Type of signal to be carried on each fiber
  2. Do they have a preference for one fiber mode over the other
  3. Back-up power for fiber modules (each end)
  4. If analog PBX is carried, what working voltage (24V or 48V). Could impact equipment selection.

If don't have much experience interfacing systems on fiber, I would tread cautiously. Possibly find a good company you can partner with to get experience?
 
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zbang

Senior Member
Location
Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
GoldDigger said:
The hum/noise could be the result of an open wire in the pair, or it could be the result of two wires being used which do not constitute a twisted pair.
Click to expand...

IME, that doesn't matter much for POTS lines; voice-grade cable twisted pair is maybe 1 twist per inch, not 4-6 for CAT5, and the "data rate" is low. If the hum/buzz is loud enough to make a line unusable, there's either a ground, an open, or somebody ran the cable right next to a really defective lighting ballast.
 
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EV607797

Member
Location
Fredericksburg, VA
I have to agree with others posting here that fiber is the best choice for the data traffic. F/O cable can be purchased pre-terminated and with an indoor/outdoor rated jacket from most any supplier of cable. Media converters to make the transition from fiber back to copper Ethernet are relatively inexpensive, roughly $300.00 per end of the cable.

It is true: Copper wiring used for data (Ethernet) is limited to 100 meters, or roughly 328 feet. Can it work at longer distances? Sure, I've seen it work well over that length, but it isn't guaranteed to work all of the time. Of course, if it's installed improperly, it might not even work at 100 feet.

As for the voice/fax part: I'd pull 22 gauge type PE-22 cable (in conduit) or type PE-89 cable (direct-burial). Both ends will need to have the sheath bonding done properly and the cable should be terminated on a suitable building entrance terminal. You might want to farm that out to a local telecommunications contractor with experience in outside plant design.
 
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