Conditions of Maintenance and Supervision

[pierre]

The stipulation of conditions of maintenance and supervision are brought up every once and awhile. Such as for identifying conductors.
In what type of installations do you think that this stipulation can be used? such as commercial installation or industrial installations.
Or do you think that this is not restricted to any type of installation?

Pierre

 

[iwire]

Re: Conditions of Maintenance and Supervision

Pierre you ask what I think is an interesting question.

One that is sure to have a very wide range of opinions and none of them will be incorrect as the NEC does not define the term.

I apply this to any building I am certain will use electricians to perform service work.

This would most certainly be an industrial building with in house electricians.

But it also could be most of the office buildings we work in.

They hire electricians to do the service work.

In the area I work I would apply this to almost anything but single or small multi unit dwelling units.

JMO and I am sure others have different opinions that are much more restrictive and just as valid.

Bob

 

[charlie]

Re: Conditions of Maintenance and Supervision

Bob, I would agree with you except for the "ensure that only qualified persons" part of the statement. I don't believe you can do the ensuring if the owner decides to do some of the work or hire it out to a jackleg. IMO the only way to ensure the work be done be qualified persons is to have in house electricians who are qualified to do the work.

I hope all have a great Thanksgiving.

 

[iwire]

Re: Conditions of Maintenance and Supervision

Originally posted by charlie:
Bob, I would agree with you except for the "ensure that only qualified persons" part of the statement. I don't believe you can do the ensuring if the owner decides to do some of the work or hire it out to a jackleg.

I understand your thoughts on this and I know my opinion may be mine alone.

In this state the only electric work allowed by law is by qualified persons.

JMO, and Happy Thanksgiving to you.

Bob

 

[brian john]

Re: Conditions of Maintenance and Supervision

The problem is most people assume because a person is an electrician they know what they are doing.

Our field is so diverse, fire alarm, construction election, BX and 2X4 electricians, electrical testers, lighting electricians, residential electricians.

I know little or nothing about modern fire alarms or light fixtures, (ask my wife about lighting SHE HATES the lighting design I've installed in our kitchen and baths). And if there is a fire alarm problem I tell the client to call a FA company.

IMO most electricians UNLESS qualified have NO business trying to resolve ground fault issues on 480/277 VAC systems. Beside the lost time for the customer there is damaged equipment, and personal injuries from electricians utilizing improper trouble shooting practices.

The guy that spends 5 days a week changing ballast has no business opening switchgear looking for possible faults.

 

[pierre]

Re: Conditions of Maintenance and Supervision

This brings up another point, what and who is qualified.
A plant electrician may not know the installation procedures for NM cable, where a commercial electrician may have never seen the installation of motor circuits. The qualification requirements are training specific to the installation, as well as the hazards that could be part of the installation procedure. OSHA and the NEC have definitions for this. There is a definition in 240.2 Supervised Industrial Installation. This is where the NFPA will direct you when they explain this type of requirement. They consider this requirement to be only available to the industrial locations. You will notice that at the end of the definition, they exclude the parts of the building(s) that are not part of the industrial process. So as you read this in the NEC where they stipulate the requirement, whether in positive language or as an exception, they are refering to industrial locations where there are supposed to be qualified individuals responsible for the work.

Pierre

 

[big john]

Re: Conditions of Maintenance and Supervision

There are also levels of qualification within each subcatagory of electricians.

I don't think any state with a licensing program would recognise me as a qualified individual. I'm an apprentice; I'm not licensed, bonded, or insured. However, if a situation exists where the work might be done by a homeowner of joe-handyman, I would prefer to do the installation myself any day of the week.

I know the quality of my work, and I know that were an inspector to come through after me, there wouldn't be a red tag. Whereas with anyone else who also unlicensed but also far less experienced, you could never be sure about the type of work being preformed.

-John

 

[charlie]

Re: Conditions of Maintenance and Supervision

Pierre, when we wrote that definition (two others and myself who started it and the full panel polished it), the intent was to exclude Joe's Garage and Mike's Grocery from the ability to use the provisions. The real intent of Article 240, Part VIII is to permit the really large industrial installations to do just about anything they want as long as they protect their conductors and equipment.

The large industrials are similar to electric utilities in that the end result is what matters and they have the engineering staff to accomplish the end results.

The bottom line is that this definition should not be used in other places unless this intent is meant.

 

[pierre]

Re: Conditions of Maintenance and Supervision

Charlie

Where better to find the answers than from those who are responsible for the writing of them. Thanks for answering this.

Pierre