My customer is wanting her service changed from a 3 wire system to a 4 wire system before she buys a condo. All the sub panels in the complex stem from the main disconnects at front of building. Would this require changing all the meter housings to 4 wire, or can I check into bringing a 4 wire system (ground) to just her location? I would think that the meter blocks (6) would need to be replaced for All the units, right? Or can I derive a grounding means back to the disconnect?
Condo Needs Service Change
- Thread starter euclid43
- Start date
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VOICECOILS
Member
- Location
- california
depends on te service provided
depends on te service provided
It all depends on the service provided to the complex. If the service provided is a 3 wire single phase that will be all you can get. If the service provided is a 4 wire 3 phase type then yes you can upgrade the service. However, there is no real reason why you would find a four wire service in a residential family dwelling. 3 phase four wire service is typiclly found in commercial and industrial applications. At least this is what is true in california. I cant speak for other states.
depends on te service provided
It all depends on the service provided to the complex. If the service provided is a 3 wire single phase that will be all you can get. If the service provided is a 4 wire 3 phase type then yes you can upgrade the service. However, there is no real reason why you would find a four wire service in a residential family dwelling. 3 phase four wire service is typiclly found in commercial and industrial applications. At least this is what is true in california. I cant speak for other states.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
More details of the installation would help a lot. Sounds like there is a good chance however that this never should have had three conductors to each unit.
Where are the service disconnect(s)? Sounds like all grouped together at one location, correct?
What wiring methods are used between the service disconnect and the sub panels. If metallic wiring methods, then the wiring method is very likely a qualifying EGC.
Three wire feeder was never allowed for such an install (at least not for a very, very long time anyway), but would have been allowed if it supplied a separate building or other structure.
That leads to my question... how old are the condo's ?
John120/240
Senior Member
- Location
- Olathe, Kansas
This could get interesting if one condo owner wants an upgrade but the main disconnect is shared by the others. Around here for multi
family structures if the condo owner owns their own unit All utilities must be located within their unit.
family structures if the condo owner owns their own unit All utilities must be located within their unit.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I am not all that familiar with multi occupancy with multi owner situations, but I would think this would be no different than how other items are handled that are common to more than one occupant, like a driveway, parking lot, landscaping and lawn care, building exterior maintenance, common items related to other utilities, etc.
There could even be a single disconnect for service and meter center, but if any of this needs maintenance, repair, upgrade, cost would likely be shared in some way by all owners. I bet many places have some kind of maintenance dues that go into some fund for such things, and if something special and unexpected comes up then they have to have a meeting and decisions need to be made. Really not much different than a government entity, a general budget and then occasionally something special comes up and how to pay for it needs public meetings and input.
Now if only one owner wants to upgrade say from 100 amp supply to 200 amp supply to their unit only, then they likely end up paying for whatever is necessary to get it done.
KWIRED - sounds like you understand my situation, thanks. The conduit exists, and probably serves as the ground, but I wonder if I can install a ground going back to the disconnect (meter main combos/with disconnect). The distribution is all in the the same building and is feeding each unit with 100 amps. Every unit has two hots, and a neutral. I told her that though the panel and system is antiquated, it is not condemned and is still useful. She is probably just wanting a reason to lower the purchase price of the home.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
Lower the purchase price---- that say's it all she is wasting your time.
Are you speaking of a 3 wire ungrounded system or something else?
Otherwise:
I have never heard of such a request from a customer.
I think you are getting ahead of yourself.
But just for the sake of discussion.
Some Multi-family have 3-phase service to the Main Switchboard or gutter. Then split off into 3 wire 120/208 single phase with ground. It would be possible to change the single meter to a 4-wire 3 phase and pull in new feeders.
Any of the above would be subject to the AHJ
I erroneously used the word "system" while explaining. This is a 3 wire 120/240 system - service, and feeds subpanels located in each unit. Every unit has three wire feeders, which is rare. My guess is that the house is conduited and using it as a grounding means. Yes, this person is wasting my time, but I would like to spew a few words of wisdom before I show her my finger.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Maybe a home inspector pointed out the issue and they want to use the fact there was deficiencies in the inspection as leverage on purchase price.
If there is metallic raceway then there is an equipment grounding conductor. Hopefully the bonding screw was not installed in the sub panel and neutrals are separated from EGC at the sub panel otherwise the raceway has been parallel to the neutral ever since it was installed and all equipment grounding conductors were subjected to potentially being neutral paths also. Equipment grounding conductors would have been operating at whatever voltage drop was on the neutral in reference to true earth ground.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
why do you feel that way? Careless workers?
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
Never give the customer the finger, Never tell them off. All that does is give you a bad rap even if they were blatently ripping you off.
Also i have seen tennant subs wired with 2 wire w/bare neutral cable to subs in the 70's. I think it was improper back then. I bet that is the issue here. The home inspector found the N & G tied together and a bare nuetral at the sub
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