Conductor failure and troubleshooting charges

[mark32]

I was asked to troubleshoot a dead receptacle circuit at a daycare. No voltage present at first rec in the circuit and no continuity from the grounded conductor to ground, but had voltage present at the breaker terminals. Tried pulling on the conductors, 12 solid in emt (Embedded in concrete) with old brittle insulation, but they wouldn't budge, hooked up the tracer but the signal dropped off within a few feet of the receptacle in question, nor sure if that was accurate or not. Owner says no breakers have tripped in some time. I finally decided not to waste anymore time on the existing issue and told the owner I could refeed the circuit with ac or mc. Two questions, how could both conductors fail like this and do you typically charge for troubleshooting when the troubleshooting leads to installing a new circuit, etc. For example, if the owner has me to fix this with my solution then I should eat the troubleshooting charge or add that into the cost to repair this circuit? In reference to the troubleshooting itself, no one but a plumber had been doing any work in the school since this circuit failed.

 

[K8MHZ]

I have seen rigid fail in concrete to the point that it collapsed and cut and clamped the conductors. This was due to uneven settling of the ground under the structure and walkway and rusting of the conduit.

So, I have no reason to think EMT would be immune to such a thing.

 

[xformer]

I have not done much estimating, but I would guess that you would charge some amount for troubleshooting. If the work required to fix the issue was substantial enough, i would maybe discount or dismiss the troubleshooting time.

 

[ptonsparky]

For me, diagnosis and fix would be one charge, unless they wanted separate billing. I would not discount either for this size of job. Works for me most of the time. May not for you.

 

[readydave8]

how both conductors failed

how both conductors failed

I went on a call today with similiar symptons, romex rather than emt tho. Both conductors failed where physical damage caused L-N short, repeated resetting of breaker melted them both.So it burned clear.

 

[kwired]

Why do you think your troubleshooting is not part of the process of fixing the problem?

You could do like some guys that have no clue of how to find problems do:

1. outlet doesn't work. replace outlet.

2. outlet still doesn't work. replace circuit breaker.

3. outlet still doesn't work. you see there is no ground rod at the service so you install a ground rod.

4. outlet still doesn't work. replace entire service or subpanel.

5. outlet still doesn't work. tell owner it can not be fixed, put a blank cover over it and run a new circuit to an outlet right next to it and bill them for everything you have done that maybe was not necessary:thumbsdown:

 

[mark32]

Thanks for the replies, I meant to post this in the contractor's section but I must have gotten distracted by something. Anyway, Kwired, I feel the same as you with regards to your first sentence, troubleshooting is certainly an essential part of fixing a problem and should be billed for appropriately. What lead me to ask such a question is, when you have a vehicle towed into your mechanic, you are charged for the tow but if you get the car repaired by said company they may waive the tow fee, so I was looking at it from that angle, that and the owner in this case is my wife's boss.

 

[kwired]

Thanks for the replies, I meant to post this in the contractor's section but I must have gotten distracted by something. Anyway, Kwired, I feel the same as you with regards to your first sentence, troubleshooting is certainly an essential part of fixing a problem and should be billed for appropriately. What lead me to ask such a question is, when you have a vehicle towed into your mechanic, you are charged for the tow but if you get the car repaired by said company they may waive the tow fee, so I was looking at it from that angle, that and the owner in this case is my wife's boss.

Just because they did not itemize the towing fee doesn't mean they did not throw in some labor to help cover that somehow. It does cost them to own and operate a tow truck.

You can do whatever you want, just remember the time you gave away is time you could have been making profit someplace else.

Maybe the thing to consider is to not itemize into too much detail on your bill.

I can understand maybe having a minimum service charge that is higher than your hourly rate. If you have more than one hour at a call you don't charge that minimum rate but rather the hourly rate for the whole duration of the job. This is what the minimum charge is about, lost time. How many service calls do you get that you can find and fix the problem in less than an hour, yet it took about two or even three hours away from any other productivity for the day?

 

[mark32]

Brilliant post kwired. Yeah I figured a towing charge would likely be incorporated into the final bill. I like the line about being elsewhere making money while troubleshooting for free.