Conductors in free air that touch spray foam insulation

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My electrician created a bundle of wires in the crawl space of a new house with a conditioned crawl space. The bundle of wires is stapled to the side of the pressure treated plate and it's impossible to keep the spray foam insulation off of the wires. Does the 2020 nec have any restrictions on conductors in contact with spray foam insulation?
 
My electrician created a bundle of wires in the crawl space of a new house with a conditioned crawl space. The bundle of wires is stapled to the side of the pressure treated plate and it's impossible to keep the spray foam insulation off of the wires. Does the 2020 nec have any restrictions on conductors in contact with spray foam insulation?
No

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A picture of the bundle
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I don't think that will be an issue as I don't see that as bundling. That is very likely not a compliant way to strap the wire with many different wires under one staple but if it holds I wouldn't worry about it. Give a light tug and if the staple pulls out get the ec to come back and re staple it.
 
I don't think that will be an issue as I don't see that as bundling. That is very likely not a compliant way to strap the wire with many different wires under one staple but if it holds I wouldn't worry about it. Give a light tug and if the staple pulls out get the ec to come back and re staple it.

It will likely hold because the one leg is sitting on the concrete - but there’s no way that leg penetrated the joist. It sure looks amateurish.
 
I would want the opinion of the your local inspection authority before letting any foam cover the conductors. There are different ways the the local authorities read the provisions of 334.80.
 
Is that a cat5/6 ethernet cable in the bundle too? I'm not a fan of bundling data and electrical that closely together. 800.133(A)(2)?
 
Is that a cat5/6 ethernet cable in the bundle too? I'm not a fan of bundling data and electrical that closely together. 800.133(A)(2)?
800.133 A 2 does not apply as the NM Cable is a chapter 3 wiring method, would you object to the Enet cable being next to RMC? The code does not care. You are correct in thinking that there will be noise induced in the cat five cable perhaps, but from a code perspective it’s not an issue.
 
Yes the CAT 6 was laying on top of the bundle and will be run with a RG6 separately. This bundle concerns me already and the electrician is going to try to spread the wires out to avoid a ampacity adjustment but I agree that amateurish is an understatement. I view the bundle as a clear violation of the 2020 code. Thanks for directing me to 334.80 and it seems that spray foam insulation on any bundled wires is a violation. Am I correct in assuming that even 2 NM cables are stacked or stapled without maintaining spacing encased in foam can lead to overheating?

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If the length of the cables on the foam filled portion it is less than 2 feet no overheating will be an issue. The foam insulation could be a kind of fire stop and it is ok.
 
A picture of the bundle
2b03f614eb4d568209b5f85edb39fdbd.jpg


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From what I recall the NEC code book saying about NM Cables (romex) is that if you have more than two cables entering a wood stud through the same hole and being sealed with sealant or within insulation, the ampacity of cables must be reduced according to the chart on 3 or more current carrying conductors. Therefore the breaker may be have to be lower and ampacity available to you may be lower than if wires were separated and placed 2 per hole or less
 
Staples must be placed every 4/1/2 ft of NM cable and within 12 inches to entering a box or termination
 
From what I recall the NEC code book saying about NM Cables (romex) is that if you have more than two cables entering a wood stud through the same hole and being sealed with sealant or within insulation, the ampacity of cables must be reduced according to the chart on 3 or more current carrying conductors. Therefore the breaker may be have to be lower and ampacity available to you may be lower than if wires were separated and placed 2 per hole or less
Derate off the 90 degree column. Final ampacity cannot exceed 60 degree column.
12 AWG CU @ 90 = 30 amps.

Use table 310.15C for derating more than 3 CCCs.

7-9 CCCs = 70 percent ampacity.

30 x .7 = 21 amps

(4) 12-2 AWG CU NM-B cables = 8 CCCs
 
Derate off the 90 degree column. Final ampacity cannot exceed 60 degree column.
12 AWG CU @ 90 = 30 amps.

Use table 310.15C for derating more than 3 CCCs.

7-9 CCCs = 70 percent ampacity.

30 x .7 = 21 amps

(4) 12-2 AWG CU NM-B cables = 8 CCCs
Matt that seems good but we also have not discussed the confusion of ambient temperature correction for ampacity in wires. The confusion is using the ambient temperature present at the time but according to mike holt ambient temperature for a region is derived at copper.net but not the current temperature at the moment.

Take this value at copper.net and find ampacity multiplayer in NEC table to further reduce or increase conductor ampacity

Also am I reading NEC correct on NM Cables 3 or more entering The same hole With sealant or insulation needing derating? Thanks
 
Even though built for 90s Are we to base NM cable ampacity at 60degree column Of Free air conductor chart?

Also NM cables have 2 current carrying conductors if neutral is unbalanced so 2 Romex cables may be as 4 conductors but I don’t think NEC counts it this way. I believe it’s 2 NM cables ROMEX entering a hole maximum before having to correct ampacity at 3 NM cables. Feedback clarification welcome. Thanks
 
If the length of the cables on the foam filled portion it is less than 2 feet no overheating will be an issue. The foam insulation could be a kind of fire stop and it is ok.
I understand this but what does code say. I don’t recall any specific length such as under 2’ being mentioned?
 
It will likely hold because the one leg is sitting on the concrete - but there’s no way that leg penetrated the joist. It sure looks amateurish.
Yeah I wonder if that staple is listed for that many cables.
 
Matt that seems good but we also have not discussed the confusion of ambient temperature correction for ampacity in wires. The confusion is using the ambient temperature present at the time but according to mike holt ambient temperature for a region is derived at copper.net but not the current temperature at the moment.

Take this value at copper.net and find ampacity multiplayer in NEC table to further reduce or increase conductor ampacity

Also am I reading NEC correct on NM Cables 3 or more entering The same hole With sealant or insulation needing derating? Thanks
basically just just the standard temp 99.9% of the time. 22 years in the field, I have never seen anyone use temp adjustments for "minor" temp changes such as crawl spaces. No one seems to worry about hot attics either.

Regarding the derating, the code says "Where more than two NM cables containing two or more current-carrying conductors are installed...." so what a lot of people do is STOP right there, but If you go through the derating process, you will find that for #12 and #14 sizes, it doesnt really effect you until over 9 CCC, or 4 12-2 cables. (see the math done by matt post #14


Even though built for 90s Are we to base NM cable ampacity at 60degree column Of Free air conductor chart?

Also NM cables have 2 current carrying conductors if neutral is unbalanced so 2 Romex cables may be as 4 conductors but I don’t think NEC counts it this way. I believe it’s 2 NM cables ROMEX entering a hole maximum before having to correct ampacity at 3 NM cables. Feedback clarification welcome. Thanks

See 310.15(B)

"The temperature correction and adjustment factors shall be permitted to be applied to the ampacity for the temperature rating of the conductor, if the corrected and adjusted ampacity does not exceed the ampacity for the temperature rating of the termination in accordance with the provisions of 110.14(C)"

So you start your derating from the 90 degree column.

The number of cables is irrelevant, it is the number of CCC. a split phase MWBC is always 2 CCC.
I understand this but what does code say. I don’t recall any specific length such as under 2’ being mentioned?
See 310.15(B)(3) for the under 24" without spacing wording.
 
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