Configuration of auxiliary transformer for solar system to power single phase aux. loads

shivam.pandey

Member
Location
Chula Vista
Occupation
Solar design engineer
We are working on 5MWac community solar and have submitted IC drawing. Utility is asking us to show configuration on the 10kVA auxiliary transformer and specify if transformer configuration Delta : WYE G. We currently take two lines (L1 and L2, 600V) from three phase panelboard with 30A, 2P breaker for auxiliary transformer.
I am attaching the utility concern for your reference. FYI, utility is AEP Ohio. Secondary is 120/240V

What is best configuration for auxiliary transformer when service transformer configuration is WYE G: WYE G, 600V:12.47kV, 5MVA
Originally no winding configuration symbols was shown for the aux transformer on drawings.


Utility comment
what is required for each of the projects to avoid the loss of phase testing.

The main issue that arose from the drawing set was a lack of clarity surrounding how the auxiliary transformers were shown in the drawings. What our engineers wanted clarity on is if the auxiliary transformer is taking more than a single phase on the primary side, then how is the transformer wired? The use three phase transformers that are not configured as WYE-grounded : WYE-grounded is problematic due to the noted effect it has on the inverters to detect a utility loss of phase-it has been observed that if a delta transformer is wired in series or in parallel with the inverter systems, then the delta transformer has made it difficult for the inverters to fully detect a utility side loss of phase event, so they will continue operations when they should cease to energize. So if the auxiliary transformers are three phase, then our engineering team wants to ensure that they are wired in a way that will not cause an issue with the inverters to detect a loss of phase on the utility side and will cease to energize. The preferred configuration is WYE-grounded : WYE-grounded.




If the transformers are not 3 phase, then the engineering team wants to ensure that the proper primary side voltage of the auxiliary transformer is shown on the system. If the transformers are single phase, then please show the primary side voltage as 347 V (L-N voltage).
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
What is the purpose of the auxiliary transformer in your system? What voltage do the inverters connect at and does the aux transformer having anything to do with the main powrr output function of the system? Does it have anything to do with phase loss detection? I'm struggling to figure out why they would be concerned about a 10kVa auxiliary transformer in a 5MVa system. Perhaps they are confused about the role this transformer is playing.
 

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
We currently take two lines (L1 and L2, 600V) from three phase panelboard with 30A, 2P breaker for auxiliary

If the transformers are single phase, then please show the primary side voltage as 347 V (L-N voltage).
They don't want you to use 600V Line to line single phase transformers, they want you to use 347V L-N for the primary.
the reason presumably is if Line 1 is lost then Line 2 can make line 1 appear to the inverter thru the winding. It seems like 1741 inverters should be smart enough, in 2024, to detect this but I am not versed in the 1741 spec.
I'd probably have phase loss or phase discordance logic relay on the 12.4 kv side if the 1741 inverters cant detect a lost phase.
 

shivam.pandey

Member
Location
Chula Vista
Occupation
Solar design engineer
What is the purpose of the auxiliary transformer in your system?
Auxiliary transformer will be connected to 200A Aux panelboard which will then power aux loads like security camera, DAS and other single phase loads
What voltage do the inverters connect at and does the aux transformer having anything to do with the main powrr output function of the system
40 125kW 600V CPS inverters combined into ten 800A panelboards. Then four 800A panelboards will be connected to two 2500kVA transformers (5 X 800A to single transformer). Aux 10kVA XFMR will be connected to one of the 2500kVA transformer. So total six feeders connected to one 2500kVA transformer (Five 800A feeders and one aux transformer feeder.
POI is 12.47kV distribution line.

Excerpt from inverter installation manual if that might help-
3W Wye and 4W Grounded Wye is recommended. Floating 3W Wye 3W Delta Configuration is acceptable but required external GFCI. The presence of a Grounding Transformer or YG : d causes voltage regeneration – Loss of Single Phase must be mitigated external to Inverter due to regenerated voltage present at inverter AC terminals
 

shivam.pandey

Member
Location
Chula Vista
Occupation
Solar design engineer
They don't want you to use 600V Line to line single phase transformers, they want you to use 347V L-N for the primary.
Is it possible to take L-N for aux transformer when system is WYE, 3W configuration. Do we need to show delta 600V:WYE 240/120V configuration at aux transformer?
 
They don't want you to use 600V Line to line single phase transformers, they want you to use 347V L-N for the primary.
the reason presumably is if Line 1 is lost then Line 2 can make line 1 appear to the inverter thru the winding. It seems like 1741 inverters should be smart enough, in 2024, to detect this but I am not versed in the 1741 spec.
I'd probably have phase loss or phase discordance logic relay on the 12.4 kv side if the 1741 inverters cant detect a lost phase.
It isn't really clear to me if they are saying that they want the transformer fed L-N and L-L. Their wording is a bit unclear and ambiguous.
 

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
Is it possible to take L-N for aux transformer when system is WYE, 3W configuration.
Yes
Do we need to show delta 600V:WYE 240/120V configuration at aux transformer?
You said your aux panel is single phase, so if that's correct just show a single phase transformer 347 : 120/240.
Or more accurately called a single phase to split phase transfromer.
The primary would be 347V Line to neutral, single pole breaker.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
If the transformers are not 3 phase, then the engineering team wants to ensure that the proper primary side voltage of the auxiliary transformer is shown on the system. If the transformers are single phase, then please show the primary side voltage as 347 V (L-N voltage).
So given post #4, this is the only part of the utility's comments that apply to the OP's project. The utility wants the auxiliary transformer better labeled, perhaps it should also be notated "house loads only, no PV connected" or something like that.

Is there a valid technical reason for the utility to require this transformer to be supplied L-N rather than L-L? How would having an L-L connected single phase transformer on the utility side of the inverters affect the inverters' phase loss detection?

Cheers, Wayne
 

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
How would having an L-L connected single phase transformer on the utility side of the inverters affect the inverters' phase loss detection?
I dont know about inverters but just the other day I ran into this, a 12.4kv 3 phase system with several two bushing transformer's connected line to line 12.4kv : 120/240
One of the phases was lost, and we had between 60-80 volts, funny thing is it was enough for most of the LED overhead lighting to stay running. Both primary lines appeared hot.
 

shivam.pandey

Member
Location
Chula Vista
Occupation
Solar design engineer
The primary would be 347V Line to neutral, single pole breaker.
From where neutral will needs to taken if transformer is WYE 3 wire system? FYI we are taking lines from 2.5MVA transformer LV side and transformer LV is 600V WYE ungrounded, 3W. Is it from the same place where transformer grounded at pad
One of the phases was lost, and we had between 60-80 volts, funny thing is it was enough for most of the LED overhead lighting to stay running. Both primary lines appeared hot.
I think, for same reason utility might be asking to go with L-N instead of L-L as you mentioned earlier one of the phase will appear to another when one is lost. We are trying to clarify same from utility.
Apologies for the confusion. Thank you for your valuable inputs.
 
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