Connecting ATS to elevator panel

[Talmadge]

I'm an electrical contractor in Texas, I'm also the Master.

I'm hoping this is the appropriate topic to post this here. If not, my apologies to the moderator, I looked over the other topics and this one seemed the most related.

Without naming locations, my office is located 6 hours away from the location in question (Texas is big) and I don't service the area of the location. This job was a one-off because there were no able generator contractors in the area and I was an old friend of the head of maintenance (at the time) for this facility. He begged me to come help him.

In 2022 I installed a stand by generator at a resort. The resort was soon to be completely remodeled and the new generator was the first thing they wanted to get done. I replaced an existing standby generator that was not functioning. All of the existing wiring from the generator to the ATS and from the ATS to the emergency systems power bank was all NEC compliant and didn't need to be replaced or modified. All we did was remove the old generator, set the new one and wire it up the way it was. We shut down the entire facility at 3 am to test the emergency systems. The ATS took over and provided power to the emergency power panels as expected, the elevators ran as normal. We exercised all of the emergency systems that we could except for actually running the fire pumps (but the fire pump system had power). I programmed the generator to exercise itself once a week and verified that it was doing so with the staff maintenance manager for four weeks after the project was complete.

After the generator was set and tested, the facility had the fire alarm contractor onsite the next day to get his system current and compliant. He requested that I run a set of control wires from the ATS to the fire alarm control room. We did this. We installed two runs of CAT6 in EMT from the ATS and terminated them in a 1900 box located in the ceiling of the fire control room, we also left enough CAT6 to run anywhere in the fire control room. The other end is rolled up in the ATS enclosure. It was my understanding that the elevator company was supposed to terminate the signal wires in the ATS & the fire alarm panel to do whatever they are required to do with the elevator in case of a fire or power outage.

Now, two years after and the facillity nearing the completion of the big remodel. Their local electrician is not wanting to connect the wires to the ATS because he really doesn't know where they go. That's understandable because I'm not really sure it is the electricians job to do this. The fire alarm company says it's the elevator company's responsibility and the elevator company says it's my responsibility because I installed the generator.

I don't mind making the terminations nor do I mind traveling that far, if I'm suitably compensated for my time and travel.

My question here is, what would other contractors do in this situation? If I did accept the job, where would I find out what the ATS is supposed to do for the fire control panel and the elevators? It it within the legal coverage of my electrical Masters license in Texas to do such work? Or should the elevator contractor be the one who is responsible?

 

[qcroanoke]

I'm an electrical contractor in Texas, I'm also the Master.

I'm hoping this is the appropriate topic to post this here. If not, my apologies to the moderator, I looked over the other topics and this one seemed the most related.

Without naming locations, my office is located 6 hours away from the location in question (Texas is big) and I don't service the area of the location. This job was a one-off because there were no able generator contractors in the area and I was an old friend of the head of maintenance (at the time) for this facility. He begged me to come help him.

In 2022 I installed a stand by generator at a resort. The resort was soon to be completely remodeled and the new generator was the first thing they wanted to get done. I replaced an existing standby generator that was not functioning. All of the existing wiring from the generator to the ATS and from the ATS to the emergency systems power bank was all NEC compliant and didn't need to be replaced or modified. All we did was remove the old generator, set the new one and wire it up the way it was. We shut down the entire facility at 3 am to test the emergency systems. The ATS took over and provided power to the emergency power panels as expected, the elevators ran as normal. We exercised all of the emergency systems that we could except for actually running the fire pumps (but the fire pump system had power). I programmed the generator to exercise itself once a week and verified that it was doing so with the staff maintenance manager for four weeks after the project was complete.

After the generator was set and tested, the facility had the fire alarm contractor onsite the next day to get his system current and compliant. He requested that I run a set of control wires from the ATS to the fire alarm control room. We did this. We installed two runs of CAT6 in EMT from the ATS and terminated them in a 1900 box located in the ceiling of the fire control room, we also left enough CAT6 to run anywhere in the fire control room. The other end is rolled up in the ATS enclosure. It was my understanding that the elevator company was supposed to terminate the signal wires in the ATS & the fire alarm panel to do whatever they are required to do with the elevator in case of a fire or power outage.

Now, two years after and the facillity nearing the completion of the big remodel. Their local electrician is not wanting to connect the wires to the ATS because he really doesn't know where they go. That's understandable because I'm not really sure it is the electricians job to do this. The fire alarm company says it's the elevator company's responsibility and the elevator company says it's my responsibility because I installed the generator.

I don't mind making the terminations nor do I mind traveling that far, if I'm suitably compensated for my time and travel.

My question here is, what would other contractors do in this situation? If I did accept the job, where would I find out what the ATS is supposed to do for the fire control panel and the elevators? It it within the legal coverage of my electrical Masters license in Texas to do such work? Or should the elevator contractor be the one who is responsible?

Elevator contractor and fire panel contractor should be telling you at the very least what they need. Then you ask ATS mfgr. Where to put them

 

[Birken Vogt]

I'm the generator guy and other trades hire me to do this work. Typically the ATS will need programming to make the contact closures do what you want and that is done with software.

 

[hornetd]

I'm an electrical contractor in Texas, I'm also the Master.

I'm hoping this is the appropriate topic to post this here. If not, my apologies to the moderator, I looked over the other topics and this one seemed the most related.

Without naming locations, my office is located 6 hours away from the location in question (Texas is big) and I don't service the area of the location. This job was a one-off because there were no able generator contractors in the area and I was an old friend of the head of maintenance (at the time) for this facility. He begged me to come help him.

In 2022 I installed a stand by generator at a resort. The resort was soon to be completely remodeled and the new generator was the first thing they wanted to get done. I replaced an existing standby generator that was not functioning. All of the existing wiring from the generator to the ATS and from the ATS to the emergency systems power bank was all NEC compliant and didn't need to be replaced or modified. All we did was remove the old generator, set the new one and wire it up the way it was. We shut down the entire facility at 3 am to test the emergency systems. The ATS took over and provided power to the emergency power panels as expected, the elevators ran as normal. We exercised all of the emergency systems that we could except for actually running the fire pumps (but the fire pump system had power). I programmed the generator to exercise itself once a week and verified that it was doing so with the staff maintenance manager for four weeks after the project was complete.

After the generator was set and tested, the facility had the fire alarm contractor onsite the next day to get his system current and compliant. He requested that I run a set of control wires from the ATS to the fire alarm control room. We did this. We installed two runs of CAT6 in EMT from the ATS and terminated them in a 1900 box located in the ceiling of the fire control room, we also left enough CAT6 to run anywhere in the fire control room. The other end is rolled up in the ATS enclosure. It was my understanding that the elevator company was supposed to terminate the signal wires in the ATS & the fire alarm panel to do whatever they are required to do with the elevator in case of a fire or power outage.

Now, two years after and the facility nearing the completion of the big remodel. Their local electrician is not wanting to connect the wires to the ATS because he really doesn't know where they go. That's understandable because I'm not really sure it is the electricians job to do this. The fire alarm company says it's the elevator company's responsibility and the elevator company says it's my responsibility because I installed the generator.

I don't mind making the terminations nor do I mind traveling that far, if I'm suitably compensated for my time and travel.

My question here is, what would other contractors do in this situation? If I did accept the job, where would I find out what the ATS is supposed to do for the fire control panel and the elevators? It it within the legal coverage of my electrical Masters license in Texas to do such work? Or should the elevator contractor be the one who is responsible?

I have done fire alarm work and generator control work during my working years. I retired 10 years ago. As the fire alarm installer I had to provide the elevator contractor dry contacts for the values they needed the elevator controls to respond to as enumerated in my employers contract. The elevator contractor had to provide me with dry contacts for any condition of the elevator system that my employer had excepted responsibility to monitor by the fire alarm system. The sprinkler installers had to provide dry contacts to the elevator contractor from the preaction control of the hoistway ceiling sprinklers. When I was on generator installs I provided dry contacts to the fire alarm technicians for the things that their contract required them to monitor about the generator that my employer had contracted to provide. Other crafts often tried to get contacts provided that were not in my employers contract. I was never caught out of those. There is a reason that NO is the easiest word to say in the English language.

All of the conditions you are obliged to provide contacts for are in your contract specifications. If there not then they are not in your scope of work and you have a right to seek an extra for providing them. Hopefully you didn't except an "as needed' or "as applicable codes require" clause in your contract. Applicable codes do not include what ever standards the general contractor, fire alarm contractor, or the elevator contractor wants you to wire to.

Code has a defined meaning as a set or regulations adopted by the legislature of competent authority for that location. If the code in question has not been adopted by reference by the State legislature or the legislative body of a local jurisdiction before the contract was signed it isn't a code for purposes of a your contract.

There are several different standards writing organizations in the US. It is highly profitable to have their code on any given topic adopted because then everyone who has to comply with it must buy a copy of that copyrighted document from you. Only a particular edition of a standard can be adopted. If 2 adopted standards conflict the last one adopted is the one you must comply with.

The boiler plate language that says "The installation as built must comply with all applicable codes and standards is not enforceable unless you contracted to provide design services. Such language has been ruled by several different courts as too vague to be complied with. Designers work out the particular standard and edition they will conform the design to in pre-contract negotiations.

Tom Horne