Construction activity and the Code

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don_resqcapt19 said:
There are no rules in the NEC on that subject. The NEC is an installation code, not a worker safety code. I doubt that issue is covered by any code, but should be covered in the contractors safety manual.
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Read the article again.The workers were not hit directly by lightning but through the bucket lift they were using.
 
To work or not to work, that is the question.

It's certainly outside the scope of any 'electrical' code. Period.

Of course, one could simply point to the big red sticker on the lift that says 'don't use in strong winds.'

It is also possible that the storm arose quicker than they could respond; there's more to be done than simply dropping the lift. You can't really just stop working in the middle of the pour- that concrete is going to set whether it's in the bucket or inside the forms. Then there's the matter of protecting the pour from the falling rain.

My point is that it is far easier to be critical than correct. It is arrogant to assume that you, sitting miles and days away, reading a news report, are better qualified to judge than the folks who were on site at the time. Those concrete crews are professionals, men who spent nearly a decade mastering their trade. It's high time that they were treated with at least the same respect as any slide-rule samurai with an engineering degree. Let's grant them some intelligence.
 
iwire said:
I am sure Don read the article and the answer remains the same. The NEC is an installation code, not a worker safety code.
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Please furnish full clauses of the code dealing with electrical installation of a bucket lift if available and if possible.
 
renosteinke said:
My point is that it is far easier to be critical than correct. It is arrogant to assume that you, sitting miles and days away, reading a news report, are better qualified to judge than the folks who were on site at the time. Those concrete crews are professionals, men who spent nearly a decade mastering their trade. It's high time that they were treated with at least the same respect as any slide-rule samurai with an engineering degree. Let's grant them some intelligence.
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If you look at the statistics of,say,electrical accidents,you may be surprised to find that considerable number of victims are electrical professionals.Why so? Just over-confidence.
 
T.M.Haja Sahib said:
If you look at the statistics of,say,electrical accidents,you may be surprised to find that considerable number of victims are electrical professionals.Why so? Just over-confidence.
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I would say pure numbers. People who deal with electricity everyday would have higher accident rates then people who don't. I don't consider lighting strikes as an electrical accident either. It is a very unfortunate and tragic accident.
 
T.M.Haja Sahib said:
If you look at the statistics of,say,electrical accidents,you may be surprised to find that considerable number of victims are electrical professionals.Why so? Just over-confidence.
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Your link spoke of three concrete finishers struck by lightning. I am failing to see the connection to electrical professionals.
 
T.M.Haja Sahib said:
Please furnish full clauses of the code dealing with electrical installation of a bucket lift if available and if possible.
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Not possible; not available. Article 90.2 gives us a description and a list of what is within the scope of the NEC, and bucket lifts do not match that list.
 
T.M.Haja Sahib said:
Read the article again.The workers were not hit directly by lightning but through the bucket lift they were using.
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Short of not being in the area, I don't see any way to prevent this kind of thing.

The article said they were on the 7th floor of a 48 story building. I don't know if that means there are 41 floors above where they were working or not.

Not many construction crews are going to stop working because of some rain if they are under a roof.

Lightening is very unpredictable and the article said the storm came on fast, so it could be they just did not even notice it happening. Or did not consider it dangerous if they did notice.

One would think that all the steel surrounding them would have given them a lot of protection from lightening, but lightening won this time around.
 
My contention is as follows.

The bucket lift was hit by lightning.The workers might have been killed/injured by side flash from the bucket lift.So if the grounding and bonding of the bucket lift were proper,the accident might not have happened.
 
iwire said:
Your link spoke of three concrete finishers struck by lightning. I am failing to see the connection to electrical professionals.
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I quoted electrical professionals as a specific example.Almost any person tends to be over-confident and thus becomes more accident prone, as he gains skill in a particular field.
 
T.M.Haja Sahib said:
So if the grounding and bonding of the bucket lift were proper,the accident might not have happened.
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There is no such thing as "proper" grounding and bonding, for an item that is manufactured as a unit, and that is therefore outside the scope of the NEC. Nothing an electrician could have done would have prevented or mitigated this tragedy. You might as well take note that cars have batteries and electrical wiring, and then ask where in the NEC is the rule that prohibits speeding on wet roads to prevent traffic accidents.

If you have something to ask or to offer, something that is related to the electrical industry, then please share it. But let us not get bogged down in issues that are not of an electrical nature.
 
charlie b said:
There is no such thing as "proper" grounding and bonding, for an item that is manufactured as a unit, and that is therefore outside the scope of the NEC. Nothing an electrician could have done would have prevented or mitigated this tragedy.
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Of course,grounding and bonding provision for the components of the manufactured item as a unit is outside the scope of the NEC;it is taken care of by certifying agencies such as UL.But such a manufactured item should be properly grounded and bonded at site.From the subject lightning incident it is apparent to me,it was not done.
 
T.M.Haja Sahib said:
Of course,grounding and bonding provision for the components of the manufactured item as a unit is outside the scope of the NEC;it is taken care of by certifying agencies such as UL.But such a manufactured item should be properly grounded and bonded at site.From the subject lightning incident it is apparent to me,it was not done.
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just out of curiousity, in your professional opinion as an expert on lightening, just how would you have gone about making it safe to work on a lift like this in the middle of a vicious storm as was experienced here. I would like details, not just "proper" grounding and bonding.
 
T.M.Haja Sahib said:
But such a manufactured item should be properly grounded and bonded at site. From the subject lightning incident it is apparent to me,it was not done.
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I say again, there is no such thing as "proper," in this context.
  • The NEC does not tell us that a bucket truck needs to be grounded. If it were to receive power from the nearby building, then perhaps it would be treated as a "structure," and would therefore require a grounding electrode system. But it does not get power from the local facility, so as far as the NEC is concerned, it does not exist.
  • Nor does the NEC tell us that a bucket truck needs to be bonded. Things are required to be bonded if they are "likely to become energized." But that means energized by the facility's electrical system. Around the globe, there are many thousands of lightning strikes every day. But no single building, no single component within a building, is treated by the NEC as being "likely to become energized" by virtue of a lightning strike.

Since the NEC does not tell us what "proper" grounding or bonding would be for this item, we cannot say that the grounding and bonding were not "properly" done.
 
And if OSHA happens to apply I do not think there is any requirement to bond or ground a personal lift not being used to service live conductors. (I think there are rules about bonding the frame of a bucket truck while it's boom is up around live wires, this is to protect the ground crew not the guys in the bucket)
 
petersonra said:
just out of curiousity, in your professional opinion as an expert on lightening, just how would you have gone about making it safe to work on a lift like this in the middle of a vicious storm as was experienced here. I would like details, not just "proper" grounding and bonding.
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You are setting up trap for me.But give me some time.It is already past 10 p.m here.After a night sleep,I will be ready.(Really, I am getting addicted to this forum.):D
 
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