leftcoastsparky
Member
Question.....200 amp service, #6 to ground and #4 to main water pipe?
Continuing debate!!!!
- Thread starter leftcoastsparky
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- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
#6 to ground rods and #4 to water pipes... That is correct
leftcoastsparky
Member
Ty
Ty
Thank you Dennis
Ty
Thank you Dennis
Dennis.....
what if ???
1. It's a commercial 200 amp service with 3/0 cu conductors ?
2. I install my grounding electrode conductor to my ground rod and from there to my water pipe ?
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
A gentle reminder: For this question, the size of the service OCPD does not matter. What we are concerned about is the size of the service entrance condutors. While most 200 A commerical services are 3/0, that is not always the case.
The size of the OCPD is important once we are past the service disconnecting means.
The occupancy class (commerical) does not matter. The instructor in me wants to remind us that commerical is not an occupancy class, such as dwelling unit. (I learned that when I wrote a test and referenced commerical. The test takers asked - what is commerical?)
The size of the ungrounded service entrance conductors determine the size of the GEC as laid out in Section 250.66
Note the difference between Table 250.66 and Section 250.66. If we only followed Section 250.66, your ground rod would require a 4 AWG copper...
If this is a new building you will be required to install a concrete encased electrode per 250.52(A)3
The size of the OCPD is important once we are past the service disconnecting means.
The occupancy class (commerical) does not matter. The instructor in me wants to remind us that commerical is not an occupancy class, such as dwelling unit. (I learned that when I wrote a test and referenced commerical. The test takers asked - what is commerical?)
The size of the ungrounded service entrance conductors determine the size of the GEC as laid out in Section 250.66
Note the difference between Table 250.66 and Section 250.66. If we only followed Section 250.66, your ground rod would require a 4 AWG copper...
If this is a new building you will be required to install a concrete encased electrode per 250.52(A)3
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Dennis.....
what if ???
1. It's a commercial 200 amp service with 3/0 cu conductors ?
2. I install my grounding electrode conductor to my ground rod and from there to my water pipe ?
Are you starting trouble Gus????:grin:
Unless I am mistaken, I dont believe that a CEE is ever "required" to be installed. It is my understanding that you are required to connect to one if it is present.
Pete
roger3829
Senior Member
- Location
- Torrington, CT
#4 to both then you don't have to woryy about protecting it
Tom is correct if using 2008-2011 Art 250.50 where none of the electrodes are present. In new construction it would be very unusual if electrodes are present (I.e. existing agri-well) before beginning a project. (Remodel extension not included.)
I agree that where no electrodes are present something must be installed but I find no requirement that a CEE is REQUIRED to be installed.
250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used.
Given this verbiage I do not see where a CEE is required to be installed.
Pete
You're right Pete.
But before that foundation gets poured, I will guarantee that any AHJ on the adopted NEC will make sure the foundation UFER is connected because the rebar is part of the a structure requirement and is present, as the CEE per 250.52(A)(3) before the concrete pour. Unless one of the other electrodes are installed and bonded to the permanent panel disconnect before the foundation is poured would be difficult. The way the 250.50 is stated can corner the EC just by interpretation in hooking up a GEC to the rebar. Depends on what the AHJ is thinking on a cya basis.
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The timeline of existence is debatable... but for new construction it all usually exists on paper first, and that eliminates the timeline debate IMO
shepelec
Senior Member
- Location
- Palmer, MA
That is IF there is rebar in the footing. Where I am not all footings have rebar in them.
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
" Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
Are you starting trouble Gus????
Mission accomplished Gus, good job!:grin:
Are you starting trouble Gus????
trying..
Mission accomplished Gus, good job!:grin:
To CEE or not to see....
To CEE or not to see....
The time line begins upon plan check approval for the building permit. NEC 250.50 or 250.52(A)(3) encased #4 is base on a CEE. IRC R403.1.3.1 (stemwalls) and R403.1.3.2 (slabs) mandate #4 CEE to be installed prior to concrete pour.
I doubt most local AHJ's have not applied adopted rebar requirements to avoid the heavy court liabilities that can overrule in a civil court. First up, I would not gamble by constructing a dwelling without rebar and secondly, would you buy a home that was constructed without rebar in a foundation? Timeline for installing a CEE starts with the foundation, unless you are constructing a pole house under a permitted project.
To CEE or not to see....
The timeline of existence is debatable... but for new construction it all usually exists on paper first, and that eliminates the timeline debate IMO
The time line begins upon plan check approval for the building permit. NEC 250.50 or 250.52(A)(3) encased #4 is base on a CEE. IRC R403.1.3.1 (stemwalls) and R403.1.3.2 (slabs) mandate #4 CEE to be installed prior to concrete pour.
I doubt most local AHJ's have not applied adopted rebar requirements to avoid the heavy court liabilities that can overrule in a civil court. First up, I would not gamble by constructing a dwelling without rebar and secondly, would you buy a home that was constructed without rebar in a foundation? Timeline for installing a CEE starts with the foundation, unless you are constructing a pole house under a permitted project.
Finding the CEE in the IRC
Finding the CEE in the IRC
I have designed and drawn permitted plans for over 30 homes from CA to FL and all required rebar for approval of IRC R403.1.3.1 in seismic foundations. Mud shacks were a different story.
Finding the CEE in the IRC
I have designed and drawn permitted plans for over 30 homes from CA to FL and all required rebar for approval of IRC R403.1.3.1 in seismic foundations. Mud shacks were a different story.
Your reply makes me uncertain how you took my post... but FWIW I am in agreement with you.
Furthermore, I believe the 250.50 Exception implies that only CEE's of existing buildings and structures are exempt. My interpretation of existing building or structure means after CoO has been issued, or project is deemed completed where occupancy is not at issue.
My whoops
My whoops
My apologies, I was agreeing with you... but my old brain put me on an overall mental drift. Tx
My whoops
My apologies, I was agreeing with you... but my old brain put me on an overall mental drift. Tx
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