Contractor Reponsible ??

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FJayR101

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If an electrical foreman (also a licensed journeyman) tells an employee (Journeyman) to "bury" a splice box in a ceiling that is covered with sheet rock, and the employee does "as he is told", this is a violation of the code, and if this house should burn down, as a result of a short in this box, wouldn't the employee, the foreman, and the Contractor all be found liable?
 
We are not lawyers but I will guarantee everyone will be sued. The electrical contractor would ultimately be responsible for his employees but the lawyers will try to make anyone they can be responsibile. I have seen this happen. I saw a lawsuit where a company that made the metal enclosure for a panelboard on a commercial job was sued when the panel box blew up and injured a worker. The com[pany were sheetmetal workers for God sake. Of course, others were also brought into suit-- architects, builder, electrical contractor, etc.
 
If you are commanded by higher authority (i.e., the person in charge of the work) to do something that violates code, it puts you in an untenable position. The ?right thing to do? is first to refuse, secondly (if you are told to stop complaining and do what you are told) to inform the boss that you will obey but you want him to know up front that you will report the violation to the AHJ, and third (if you are still told to do it) you carry out your promise (i.e., do the work, then report the violation).

The obvious problem with this ?right thing to do? is the possible impact on your continued employment. That?s what makes your position untenable. I have no advice to offer, and will only say that we all must live with the choices we make.
 
A more winnable solution might be to suggest a code-compliant alternative that is going to be acceptable to the customer. For example, move the location of the splice so that it can be made in a junction box out of sight and blanked off.
 
If it were me I would see how the contractor feels about this sort of thing.

Here is how it normally goes, the job foreman tries to keep the job going as fast as possible to stay in good with the owner, he tells you to bury a box but if the owner were to see the buried box then guess who gets blamed. Yes it really does roll down hill. Check and see if the owner is OK with this quality of work, if he is then look for another job. If he's not then rat out the foreman and take his job ( he doesn't deserve it ).
 
If an electrical foreman (also a licensed journeyman) tells an employee (Journeyman) to "bury" a splice box in a ceiling that is covered with sheet rock, and the employee does "as he is told", this is a violation of the code, and
if this house should burn down, as a result of a short in this box, wouldn't the employee, the foreman, and the Contractor all be found liable?
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First, if i had a forman do that, he would be looking for new employment.

Yes, the Contractor would be responsible. but if he hired a forman that makes decisions like this, and has not been checking on the formans work, how responsible can the contractor be? Might be time to start looking for a good company to work for.

There are many ways to resolve a problem like that, but it may be, the job was bid too low, to do it right.
 
FJayR101 said:
If an electrical foreman (also a licensed journeyman) tells an employee (Journeyman) to "bury" a splice box in a ceiling that is covered with sheet rock, and the employee does "as he is told", this is a violation of the code, and if this house should burn down, as a result of a short in this box, wouldn't the employee, the foreman, and the Contractor all be found liable?
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why would a splice in a hidden box be any more likely to short out and cause a fire than one that is not hidden?

the real answer is that anyone with money that is even remotely involved will be sued, but usually the employees have at least some shield from liability.
 
why would a splice in a hidden box be any more likely to short out and cause a fire than one that is not hidden?
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It would not be more likely to short, but if it did fault, being a buried box, there is a good chance of the fire getting a head start, also the problems down the road when there is a problem, will be more difficult to trouble shoot.
 
satcom said:
. . . also the problems down the road when there is a problem, will be more difficult to trouble shoot.
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I think that is the principal reason we are not allowed to bury them.
 
Here in MA if I am told to do something against code and I do it we are both on the hook.

If I choose to violate the code on my own, without my employers consent the state says my employer is not responsible.

I am not sure how that would really play out, it may protect my employer from criminal charges I doubt it protects them much from civil actions. They are the juicer target for a lawyer.
 
FJayR101 said:
If an electrical foreman (also a licensed journeyman) tells an employee (Journeyman) to "bury" a splice box in a ceiling that is covered with sheet rock, and the employee does "as he is told", this is a violation of the code, and if this house should burn down, as a result of a short in this box, wouldn't the employee, the foreman, and the Contractor all be found liable?
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This is the basic plot of A Few Good Men; "I just followed orders." Getting the foreman to admit he gave the command does not alleviate the employee of responsibility.

The right thing to do is refuse, and find a way to document the command, the refusal, and the repercussions, if any. In other words, if you get fired, or even threatened, file suit.

I have always refused to bury splices, and have left a trail of blank plates in my wake to prove it.
 
My boss is the biggest ballbreaker I have ever worked for in more than 20 years but if he asked me to do something this stupid (though he NEVER would) he already knows enough about me to know I would tell him where he can put a hidden splice, and it sure ain't in the ceiling. The point is, there has to be a line drawn in the sand about your ethics, conscience, willingness to be a coward, etc. If ANYONE asks you to do something that would blatantly violate the code, tell him they will just have to come up with a logical and workable alternative.

Believe me, I have had to troubleshoot problems that resulted in "unburying" hidden splices, etc. It's no picnic and Oh that I could have tracked down the responsible party....:mad:
 
I prefer Julie's response here --- try to show a reasonable alternative.

The supervisor-critter's disregard for the Code is probably why they require insurance coverage in most jurisdictions.

We have been asked to bury such splices on many occasions, but refuse to do so. If we can't do the job right, we ain't going to do it at all!~
 
I have been asked a few times by homeowners in the past to bury a ceiling j-box. I first tell them that I will not do it. I then explain to them that it is a code violation and tell them of the implications in the future if there was to be a problem that needs troubleshooting ( i.e. cutting open the ceiling looking for the box). I then tell them that it is their house and they can do whatever they want themselves, however I document the request with my refusal and warning on the invoice and have them sign it (as I do with alot of code violating requests). I feel this not only covers me, but makes them think twice about doing it themselves.
In a situation with your foreman I guess I would definitely tell his superior about the request and if he says it's O.K. work your way up the line of command. If everyone is alright with it, including the owner, maybe you should ask yourself if this is a place that you want to work for. ( I also would not obey because you are opening yourself up to possible liability.)
 
The EC I used to work for told me to bury them, and being of weak resolve, I did. As time wore on I came to know better, and quit. Burying boxes and working for them. :D

That, and using the bare conductor in romex for a neutral in a pinch, that was a patented move on the guy's part too. Boy, I don't miss that place. :D
 
georgestolz said:
That, and using the bare conductor in romex for a neutral in a pinch, that was a patented move on the guy's part too.
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That reminds me: A few years ago, during a service upgrade combined with device changeouts, I discovered that, in the past, someone had obviously swapped out a 125v receptacle for a 250v one, for a through-the-wall AC.

I deduced that it was a change-out, and likely a home-owner DIY job, because the white was connected as the EGC, and the undersized EGC had been used as a circuit conductor! :rolleyes:
 
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