control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

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sdbob

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I work for a big general contractor, wiring tilt-ups. Offices, small factories... easy stuff.

Now the owner of the company buys a huge block of land from the BLM and wants to start a boys camp for troubled youths.

Last week I get a call from the owner and am asked what kind of wire he needs to place in the ground between the clubhouse, the water storage tank, and the well. Of course the ditch is open and they want to backfill :roll: .

All three locations have independant power sources, and are separated by 5000' to 8000'.

He wants to be able to see the status of high-low floats in the water tank, to see if the well pump is operating, and to operate solenoids routing water at the tank... all from the clubhouse 8000' away from the well and 5000' away from the tank.

I'm out of my league here. DB phone cable talking between PLC's? Tin cans and string? Wireless?

Smoke signals? :confused:
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

The question that should be asked first is what monitoring equipment is going to be used at these locations, then from that you can determine the wire requirements. 8000' is a heck of a screw up if you get it wrong so I would tell them they need to hold on until you find out.

Add to that that the water companies around here use wireless to transfer telemetry such as you will be doing. Probably cheaper in the long run than wire and maintenance on it.

-Hal
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

What am I missing?

Private wells.

Water Co. and telemetry?

:)
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

I agree with Hal though in so far as if somebody's in a hurry to fill a hole :cool:
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

Sdbob
How much lighning do you have in your area? With that much cable in the ground you might have problems. I would check and see if you can get fiber optic cable to handle the job. You said you have the power at the site. You are only sending information.
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

You can't hardly go wrong sleeving this puppy. Bid 8000' of 1.5" Sch 40 popping up for air every 500', worry about it in six months! :D
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

First of all, this project is the brainchild of my boss's, boss's boss. He's a very bright well-to-do entrepreneur and philanthropist. This man owns the company I?ve worked for for 17 ? years. There are a few words that aren?t in his vocabulary, such as ?I can?t?, lol. I must figure this out and there?s no walking away from it.

Conduit is not an option at this point. This area is high-desert scrubby open wilderness and his concern is having 15 J-boxes to get lost, buried, knocked over, ect. There is very little lighting in this area. (So cal)

Physis ? yes, they?re private wells, in fact there are two wells; one is 30? from the storage tank and also needs to be controlled.

Direct burial is the direction he wants to go.

Fiber optic sounds interesting and so does the wireless telemetry, neither of which have I the least experience with, but if I figure out the best way to proceed I can either learn or call in help, or both.

Tell me more please?

[ December 26, 2004, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: sdbob ]
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

dbob,I hav seen/worked one other installation as you spoke of years ago in 2000,in N.C. on a larger scale.I'm just guessing,but all that is required is a signal need?This signal installation was acheeved with D.B."hard-line" coax, to carry the signal for (+ -) 10 miles.Can't tell you if booster stations were involved, I just had one end,with controls in pnl.It monitored all water levels and control for pumping facil,via control pnl.(clubhouse) Coax was sized to allow for signal degrade.Less cost than Fiber.Could this installation be somewhat simular.Someone sold this installation to your Boss, There might be Engineer in this somewhere.Contact the Vendor,..because someone's got all/most the info you need brother.Good luck, and I'm interested in what you find out via your posting..
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

I don't know anything about wireless either but it sounds like might be cheaper than wire and a lot easier to get to for mantainence.

Edit: left out a word.

[ December 26, 2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

I have installed and maintained telemetry for water systems for 25 years. 1 1/2" conduit with pull boxes is a good option, and will future proof your operation.
You can multiplex all the control signals you need on a 22 gage direct buired 2 pair cable, run 6 pairs to have spares.
Fiber optic can also be used, the fiber optic modems are $50 an end, so the difference is the cost of the cable.
Wired systems are fine, but you can have cable failures and dig ups.
I have installed wireless spread spectrum and licensed radio systems as well. Phoenix (contact and terminal blocks) sells a nice packaged spread spectrum - no license required- radio system that is expandable
What you need is a packaged telemetry system, that you wire up your sensors to. Check with your local water supplier and see who they use and call around. There are lots and lots of mfgs of small telemetry systems.
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

Listen to what Tom said. I have a wireless installation a few hundred feet from my house that monitors/controls a pressure regulator in the water main below in a vault. They have 22 of these all over the area and they were installed by the local IBEW guys believe it or not! :D

Since you will have power to the locations anyway this sounds like the way to go. Much easier to install and maintain over the long run than a couple of miles of cable. Other than installing a small antenna at each location there really shouldn't be much difference connection wise.

Let's see if we can come up with some manufacturers and links to help him out.

-Hal
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

After spending 45,689 hours :(

funny, it seems these kinds of projects always pop up after the Christmas bonuses go out, lol. :cool:

Thanks very much for the direction to this point...
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

I like the Data Delivery Devices system. Keep in mind that to do this even with wire you are going to need to use some type of programmable controllers so consider this a learning experience. Looks like the Data Delivery guys will set everything up for you if you tell them what you want to do. I would give them a call first thing Monday and see what they recommend.

-Hal
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

I think your best bet is probably some form of radio telemetry. Get in touch with someone who has experience in this area.
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

actually there is a very simple solution. Run a 4 wire cable, shielded tray cable, (tray cable is direct burial rated).
Use a DC system, very low voltage drop as compared to AC. AC won't work over this long distance to to capactive coupling.
1. At the tank use a 4-20 mA pressure transducer.
4 ma is 0, 20 is full, you'll have to scale the output to the tank height. The transducer will use as much voltage as it needs to maintain the 4-20 mA, its a current loop.
2. at the tank use one wire for the hi float, one for the low float, one for DC (+), the other for the transducer signal out.
3. At the control end, you'll need 2 dc relays and a panelmeter.
4. the control end will need a DC power supply, the important thing is to size it to have 24 vdc at the transducer at 20 Ma considering the dc voltage drop in the cable.

This system won't require power at the tank. The level transducer will be about $500, floats (non mercury) about $100, at the control end I would allow $1000 for the panel.

You should be able to find a UL panel shop to wire the panel for you. Its not hard, but its a different system than AC if you've not worked on a DC control system before
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

I'm curious about something.

I've been around well pumps, smaller ones I guess, and they were self contained, pump and tank in one unit or planted near each other.

The tank float and or pressure switch would actuate the pump motor.

What is the need for the monitoring. I like to see whats happening and I like dials and meters. But is somebody going to be looking at this a lot or is it to see if the performance changes indicating a problem?

I'm being halfway silly but also serious, I get the impression there will a security guard stationed at the monitoring equipment waiting to pull the alarm.
 
Re: control wiring UG for 8000' ? ditch is open - help, lol

We had an identical situation. Remote well with large storage tank around 5000' away, feeding a $$$ hunting lodge in south Texas. Need to control pumps and know water levels.

We used a wireless setup, 900 Mhz spread spectrum telemetry system. I remember the Tx/Rx units had a radio board and an input/output board on them. Came with Yagi antenna and everything. It was simply a matter of connecting the input/outputs to the I/O board. Even analog signals.

I looked up the equipment used:

Zetron model 1804A control link.
Zetron 1804A

Two are needed. Our invoice only shows one for some strange reason, and the guy who ordered it is not here. One Control link was right at $3K.

[ December 30, 2004, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: par38lamp ]
 
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