Controls geek running pipe.

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JeffKiper

Electrical geek
Occupation
Controls guy
I am learning so put me in my place if this is not an acceptable question.

Guys I own a 2 man industrial controls shop. We assemble UL508A panels, controls, programming, etc. We specialize in machine safety and fast turn around on small jobs.

On big jobs I farm out 100% of the pipe and field wiring. My contractor quotes it and everyone wins. I HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING THIS ON BIG JOBS!!!

I get a lot of calls for a systems that they need within 24 hours. I can't find a reliable contractor to run pipe on a short notice. My go to contractors are busy and need a few days notice to mobilize for a job. These customers want everything done at nights or weekends. So a lot of time we are left to run pipe on machines. (Field disconnects, light curtains, air dump valves, Emergency stop buttons , HMI, PLC, controls only stuff , you get the idea)

I'm setup to run pipe just in case I need to. I have 700 pony, 300, Chicago, etc.I have a greenlee clampshell setup with fittings for 1/2" ,3/4" & 1".

What do you guys use to quote stuff like this. It's all on machine piping? The are usually cramped areas with lots of obstacles. We have always just used T&M on these jobs. I want to understand and learn how to bid these jobs.

I have seen a few guys with NECA books and they are aways way under on time. I see those books as new install on system. Most of these jobs are what I would call a retrofit. I don't own any of those books or software. I'm alawys willing to learn and spend money where it makes "DOLLARS" to spend money.
 
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JeffKiper said:
I am learning so put me in my place if this is not an acceptable question.

Guys I own a 2 man industrial controls shop. We assemble UL508A panels, controls, programming, etc. We specialize in machine safety and fast turn around on small jobs.

On big jobs I farm out 100% of the pipe and field wiring. My contractor quotes it and everyone wins. I HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING THIS ON BIG JOBS!!!

I get a lot of calls for a systems that they need within 24 hours. I can't find a reliable contractor to run pipe on a short notice. My go to contractors are busy and need a few days notice to mobilize for a job. These customers want everything done at nights or weekends. So a lot of time we are left to run pipe on machines. (Field disconnects, light curtains, air dump valves, Emergency stop buttons , HMI, PLC, controls only stuff , you get the idea)

I'm setup to run pipe just in case I need to. I have 700 pony, 300, Chicago, etc.I have a greenlee clampshell setup with fittings for 1/2" ,3/4" & 1".

What do you guys use to quote stuff like this. It's all on machine piping? The are usually cramped areas with lots of obstacles. We have always just used T&M on these jobs. I want to understand and learn how to bid these jobs.

I have seen a few guys with NECA books and they are aways way under on time. I see those books as new install on system. Most of these jobs are what I would call a retrofit. I don't own any of those books or software. I'm alawys willing to learn and spend money where it makes "DOLLARS" to spend money.
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You never have power/lighting circuits involved on such projects? Typically controls have to control something and an electrician (in house or a contractor) is likely running power to that something.

Just asking.
 
Most of the time the machine is existing and we are adding safety devices to it. The motors and standard valves are existing. So we just have to add devices.

On new jobs or big jobs I let the electrical contactor do all of that work.
These quick turn around are where I'm trying to learn.
 
JeffKiper said:
Most of the time the machine is existing and we are adding safety devices to it. The motors and standard valves are existing. So we just have to add devices.

On new jobs or big jobs I let the electrical contactor do all of that work.
These quick turn around are where I'm trying to learn.
Click to expand...

So typical American business policy - somebody gets an idea and wants it done yesterday, right? Or they have been thinking about it for a long time, but first tell you they will be shut down for a day about 12-48 hours ahead of the shutdown and want this done during that shutdown.
 
Sometimes it is last minute ideas that they have been thinking about.

Several of them are safety issues that have resulted in accidents and they need a quick response. We don't design guarding without a proper risk assessment. I will install safety devices while they are designing guarding.
 
Like you we generally T&M this stuff.

If we have to bid, I break the project down into tasks, and price each task accordingly based on experience. I don't use an estimating book for these kinds of projects.
 
Cow said:
Like you we generally T&M this stuff.

If we have to bid, I break the project down into tasks, and price each task accordingly based on experience. I don't use an estimating book for these kinds of projects.
Click to expand...
I doubt there is much bidding on those situations of short notice he mentions, they call and want it done. If you don't charge an outrageous price they simply pay the invoice. If it is about safety, especially if the need for the work was triggered by an accident or third party inspection - you can make pretty good money and owners still may see it as much less then what they may lose if someone does get seriously injured or killed, and won't balk at all on your price.
 
Your right, it is usually do it now!

I haven't been very good a tracking time. I need to do a better job and start creating a history so I can pull pricing from.
 
JeffKiper said:
I am learning so put me in my place if this is not an acceptable question.

Guys I own a 2 man industrial controls shop. We assemble UL508A panels, controls, programming, etc. We specialize in machine safety and fast turn around on small jobs.

On big jobs I farm out 100% of the pipe and field wiring. My contractor quotes it and everyone wins. I HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING THIS ON BIG JOBS!!!

I get a lot of calls for a systems that they need within 24 hours. I can't find a reliable contractor to run pipe on a short notice. My go to contractors are busy and need a few days notice to mobilize for a job. These customers want everything done at nights or weekends. So a lot of time we are left to run pipe on machines. (Field disconnects, light curtains, air dump valves, Emergency stop buttons , HMI, PLC, controls only stuff , you get the idea)

I'm setup to run pipe just in case I need to. I have 700 pony, 300, Chicago, etc.I have a greenlee clampshell setup with fittings for 1/2" ,3/4" & 1".

What do you guys use to quote stuff like this. It's all on machine piping? The are usually cramped areas with lots of obstacles. We have always just used T&M on these jobs. I want to understand and learn how to bid these jobs.

I have seen a few guys with NECA books and they are aways way under on time. I see those books as new install on system. Most of these jobs are what I would call a retrofit. I don't own any of those books or software. I'm alawys willing to learn and spend money where it makes "DOLLARS" to spend money.
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So, basically you are the subcontractor to the contractor who (as you mentioned) “quotes it”.

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This is a typical turnkey project that doesn't involve you with owner.. . . the contractor does all the talking--although you need some degree of expertise to come up with the price so the contractor can quote his price that he can show to the owner's project manager.

​
Your experience is the good mentor to guide you. In turnkey projects like this, you don't enjoy the luxury of “I'll get to it when I get to it” freedom. Some of these projects you have to do only when business activity is not in full swing eg at night or holidays.

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Full coordination with contractor is essential especially when working in cramped spaces or even dangerous areas which could hinder full use of your two-man crew.

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I'm not saying it can't be done but with so many variables, T&M would be most beneficial for a two-man operation.
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I can't tell from your posts or profile if you are a licensed electrical contractor. If you are not, are you legally allowed to be doing the piping and wiring you are talking about? If you are not allowed, I suggest hiring an EC for your staff.

As far as pricing is concerned, that is all a matter of experience. Make your best guess on labor hours. Keep good records of what you did and how long it took. If you are low, next time guess higher. Eventually you will learn how to get close.

Hourly rate = labor costs/hr + overhead costs/hr + desired profit/hr
Price = (materials costs * markup) + (hourly rate x labor hours guess) + travel costs

Don't forget to charge for every single hour you are working the job including the ones where you are sitting at home thinking about how to do the job. (Hint: include in overhead costs.)
 
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Coppersmith said:
I can't tell from your posts or profile if you are a licensed electrical contractor. If you are not, are you legally allowed to be doing the piping and wiring you are talking about? If you are not allowed, I suggest hiring an EC for your staff.
Click to expand...

Great comment to bring to the discussion. Just because it is "low voltage" doesn't mean codes and inspections do not apply. Rules can vary from place to place also.
 
kwired said:
Great comment to bring to the discussion.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the support. :)

kwired said:
Just because it is "low voltage" doesn't mean codes and inspections do not apply.
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Maybe.

https://standardscatalog.ul.com/standards/en/standard_508a_2

"1.1 These requirements cover industrial control panels intended for general industrial use, operating from a voltage of 1000 volts or less."

A little "high" for my tastes.

kwired said:
Rules can vary from place to place also.
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Agreed. If they are in fact, low voltage, they would still require a licence to install in my state.
 
Coppersmith said:
"1.1 These requirements cover industrial control panels intended for general industrial use, operating from a voltage of 1000 volts or less."

A little "high" for my tastes.
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Well to many of us low voltage is under at least 50 volts, but to some, 15kV is still only "medium voltage".
 
JeffKiper said:
What do you guys use to quote stuff like this. It's all on machine piping? The are usually cramped areas with lots of obstacles. We have always just used T&M on these jobs. I want to understand and learn how to bid these jobs.
Click to expand...

i've done a lot of control piping and such in food packing and various
industrial process work, in EMT, GRC, and SS.

given your focus, i'd leave it at T&M. you are doing it as a courtesy
to a customer who suffers from advance planning disorder, not as a
focus of your income plan, correct?

anyone with a high enough dipsnit index to need a 24 hour turnaround
without a plan is lame enough to be disconnected from the process to
reduce your productivity by 2/3. trust me.

for grins, take the next three jobs you have to do this way, and quote
them beforehand, for your own information. then, see what your T&M
bill turns out to be.

subtract one number from the other. i'll betcha a cheeseburger the bid
won't be as large as the T&M number. the shortfall comes out of your
panel build, which is how you make your living.
 
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