Convincing homeowners to have FPE panels replaced

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jeff48356

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Livonia, Michigan
Most of y'all are probably aware of the dangers of Federal Pacific (FPE) breaker panels in houses. I just discovered two of them in houses right in my own area this past weekend. One was at a house a few miles away that was being sold, and the buyer's inspector noted the FPE panel and recommended replacement. The seller is still negotiating with the buyer as to whether to have me replace it or not. They would be very foolish not to have the work done.

The other was right in my subdivision, at an open house (for sale) that I stopped by. I went inside just to look at the electrical, and discovered the FPE panel in the garage. I brought it to the attention of the realtor holding the open house, but she was not aware of any dangers with those. She said she would let the seller know anyway.

The former house was built in 1975; the latter in 1982.

But my question is, how could I have better success in convincing homeowners to have these hazardous things replaced? Just based on what I found this weekend, I have reason to believe that most indoor panels in my neighborhood are FPE brand. There are a lot of houses with outdoor panels, but most are GE; I don't think FPE made panels rated for outdoors.
 
Just Google FPE panels and you'll find a mountain of information. Beware that those panels have never lost their listing so arguments for removal may be considered solely an opinion.
 
When I bought my current home it originally had an FPE panel in it. My insurance company refused coverage until it was replaced. It was done on the seller's dime.

As infinity points out, they never lost their listing so you can't go around claiming they are illegal or anything like that.
 
I have literally seen hundreds of FPE panels in the sub divisions and apartments I have worked on over 35 years in the field and I have not seen one that stood out more than any other make. Meaning they look fine.

I would tell them my concerns about the brand from what I have been told and read about FPE.
Most would tell me "I have never had an issue with this panel ever having a circuit breaker trip, so why replace it?"

I think they need to see one and the problems they caused to convince them to replace it.

I have never replaced more FPE panels since the arc-fault protection have been implemented in the NEC.
 
Is there any tester available to check if specific FPE or Zinsco breakers are 'good'?

If tested good, will they remain good?

What is the cause of them being bad, poor basic design or poor manufacturing of certain lots.

Have never seen those queries answered, only generalities that FPE and Zinsco sometimes fail to trip or that quality so low that 30-50% fail to trip (implies mfg defects) . If a mfg defect or lack of factory testing, it would seem a test could tell one if a certain panel needed to be replaced.

E. g possible technique to OP question - plug in a tester (hypothetical, say a GE breaker of same but a few percent higher amperage ?) , show that tester trips before the panel breaker, demonstrating the FPE is 'no good'. ?
 
gadfly56 said:
When I bought my current home it originally had an FPE panel in it. My insurance company refused coverage until it was replaced. It was done on the seller's dime.

As infinity points out, they never lost their listing so you can't go around claiming they are illegal or anything like that.
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OK, that's news to me. All other sources I've read (or videos I've watched) say that they HAVE indeed lost their listing. They supposedly falsified information way back in the day in order to gain a listing. Such fraud has since been confirmed, so the listing has been rescinded.
 
infinity said:
Just Google FPE panels and you'll find a mountain of information. Beware that those panels have never lost their listing so arguments for removal may be considered solely an opinion.
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First of all. please understand that I am neither an advocate or detractor of FPE breakers. I have probably come across a few in my travels.
I have read a little of this mountain of information. A molehill's worth might best describe it.
And, from the little I have read, much of it does seem like opinion.

From one:
"Electrical circuit breakers manufactured by the Federal Pacific Electric (FPE) Company, and Stab-Lok® models in particular, have the potential to fail to trip in the case of an overload or short-circuit."

Don't all breakers have the potential to fail?
 
1. The breakers did lose their listing, at least in part for falsifying the tests required by UL. They did fail to trip and may have had bus contact problems (although IIRC that was more Zinsco.)
2. It is not easy to tell whether a particular breaker was made before the listing was lost or if it was made after listing was regained. If it was made before the listing was terminated, that does not guarantee that it does not have problems.
3. Given that, plus the cost, it seems more reasonable to replace the entire panel with another brand rather than selectively or totally replacing breakers.

Short of load testing the breaker to confirm proper tripping, there is no test I know of. And a breaker may survive a few trips before failing closed.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
Besoeker said:
Don't all breakers have the potential to fail?
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Sure they do, but only a very small percentage of the time; not 60% of the time as indicated by various laboratory tests on them. In fact, some FPE breakers have even been known to remain powered up even after the handle has been moved to the OFF position manually. There is a YouTube video or two on that to back up what I'm saying.
 
480sparky said:
The breakers can be tested. But by the time you pay to have that done, you've more than paid for a panel swap.
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I had in mind a tester where one clamped onto the breaker output, put a clamp on ammeter on the output to read house current, tester applies load for 135% total load, time the trip.

Would seem like a test like that for a typical panel would only take 1/2 hour (plus travel), much less than panel replacement of what, $1K to 3K? Replace the bad breakers.

As an EE, I could make a tester from parts in the shop, but would expect if anyone marketed such the tester may cost $300 or more?

Still, cannot see how that cost would be MORE than a pull panel replacement ?

Aside from liability issue (a lawyer lurks behind every panel?), would think one could sell a testing service for FPE/Zinsco panel much easier than selling panel replacements?

Admission: I may have skewed approach, as have done high power testing for over 50 years so is something I 'just' do, the testing (or assembling a tester from common shop equipment) may not seem so simple to others.
 
GoldDigger said:
1. The breakers did lose their listing, at least in part for falsifying the tests required by UL. They did fail to trip and may have had bus contact problems (although IIRC that was more Zinsco.)
2. It is not easy to tell whether a particular breaker was made before the listing was lost or if it was made after listing was regained. If it was made before the listing was terminated, that does not guarantee that it does not have problems.
3. Given that, plus the cost, it seems more reasonable to replace the entire panel with another brand rather than selectively or totally replacing breakers.

Short of load testing the breaker to confirm proper tripping, there is no test I know of. And a breaker may survive a few trips before failing closed.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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I do not believe that is true. I can't find any statement to that effect by anyone speaking for UL. It has been shown that FPE fudged the testing, but UL never, to my knowledge, actually pulled the listing.
 
junkhound said:
I had in mind a tester where one clamped onto the breaker output, put a clamp on ammeter on the output to read house current, tester applies load for 135% total load, time the trip.

Would seem like a test like that for a typical panel would only take 1/2 hour (plus travel), much less than panel replacement of what, $1K to 3K? Replace the bad breakers.

As an EE, I could make a tester from parts in the shop, but would expect if anyone marketed such the tester may cost $300 or more?

Still, cannot see how that cost would be MORE than a pull panel replacement ?

Aside from liability issue (a lawyer lurks behind every panel?), would think one could sell a testing service for FPE/Zinsco panel much easier than selling panel replacements?

Admission: I may have skewed approach, as have done high power testing for over 50 years so is something I 'just' do, the testing (or assembling a tester from common shop equipment) may not seem so simple to others.
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One of the things I have read is that the breakers act like one-shot devices. They'll trip the first time, then never again.
 
junkhound said:
................As an EE, I could make a tester from parts in the shop, but would expect if anyone marketed such the tester may cost $300 or more?

Still, cannot see how that cost would be MORE than a pull panel replacement ?
.............
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You're not considering the cost of training and labor.

And insurance. Is an EC's GL policy going to cover them for such testing?
 
GoldDigger said:
1. The breakers did lose their listing, at least in part for falsifying the tests required by UL. They did fail to trip and may have had bus contact problems (although IIRC that was more Zinsco.)
2. It is not easy to tell whether a particular breaker was made before the listing was lost or if it was made after listing was regained. If it was made before the listing was terminated, that does not guarantee that it does not have problems.
3. Given that, plus the cost, it seems more reasonable to replace the entire panel with another brand rather than selectively or totally replacing breakers.

Short of load testing the breaker to confirm proper tripping, there is no test I know of. And a breaker may survive a few trips before failing closed.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Nice summary.
Per #1 above, the failures to trip is what prompted the investigation by UL and subsequent discovery of the falsified test records, resulting in the loss of their ability to list the BREAKERS (but not the PANELS). Even after it happened, you could still buy the Canadian versions of the Stab-Lok breakers (they were grey) and install them in the panels. Then later still, other mfrs came out with replacement breakers designed to plug into Stab-Lok panels.

And yes, it was Zinsco that had a lot of PANEL failures, basically attributable to a bad busbar design.

The effective death knell for FPE panels and breakers came from a website called InspectAPedia a few years ago who released a scathing report on the potential dangers of FPE Stab-Lok breakers, in which they implied everything about FPE was dangerous. Insurance companies cite that report a lot when insisting that old FPE equipment be removed. Whether or not you believe them is up to you. The US Government Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) did a two year study on them after the UL listing loss, concluding that they could not substantiate the reports of failure to trip. Again, whether or not you believe a government agency is up to you, but the fact that this report exists is sometimes used to reject paying for upgrades.

Bottom line, you can get caught in the middle if you attempt to take sides. Offer to replace them if someone agrees to pay, but get that contract up front, because if people ASSUME they will get someone else to pay you, you might get left holding the bag.
 
jeff48356 said:
....

But my question is, how could I have better success in convincing homeowners to have these hazardous things replaced? ....
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I think there's a greater likelihood of fire caused by receptacles which don't hold onto a cord anymore

I think the industry would do well to hype up the idea of having all devices changed every 20 years or so. I beat that drum 10 times more than panel change outs
 
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