Copper Cross

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CCCI

Member
Location
Orlando, Florida
We are installing a copper cross in the front of our building. This cross is not going to be close to the building, but we are in Orlando, Fl. and we get a lot of lightning in the area. Would it help at all to ground this to a rod. The cross is about 10 feet tall and made of all copper pipe, it will be cover with some type of plants our flowers.
If we get 20,000 volts of lightning with 40,000 amps in a fraction of a second is a ground rod going to help anything or even change anything.
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
I have some questions.

1. What is the concern you have? Are you worried the cross structure will be damaged by a lightning strike or is there another concern?

2. What is the relationship of the cross structure to the earth? Is it buried directly into the earth or embedded in concrete directly buried into the earth, or is it suspened above the earth?

3. Are you installing any electrical systems at the cross structure such as lighting?

4. Do you own a copy of the NFPA 780?
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
CCCI said:
We are installing a copper cross in the front of our building. This cross is not going to be close to the building, but we are in Orlando, Fl. and we get a lot of lightning in the area. Would it help at all to ground this to a rod. The cross is about 10 feet tall and made of all copper pipe, it will be cover with some type of plants our flowers.
If we get 20,000 volts of lightning with 40,000 amps in a fraction of a second is a ground rod going to help anything or even change anything.

When you say "help", my first question is what is it you want to do? You cannot prevent lightning from striking it. You are mostly correct in your assertion that grounding it will have little or no effect as far as what happens if it gets struck by lightning.

I suspect it will be fastened to a concrete base in some way, and the base will probably be a far better grounding electrode than a ground rod would be.

I doubt there is any code requiring you to ground such a device, especially at ground level. It is no more likely to get struck by lightning than a nearby tree.

It certainly might be considered a seperate structure and if you are running electrical power to it, you may have to have a GES anyway for that reason.
 

CCCI

Member
Location
Orlando, Florida
Grounding

Grounding

bphgravity said:
I have some questions.

1. What is the concern you have? Are you worried the cross structure will be damaged by a lightning strike or is there another concern?

2. What is the relationship of the cross structure to the earth? Is it buried directly into the earth or embedded in concrete directly buried into the earth, or is it suspened above the earth?

3. Are you installing any electrical systems at the cross structure such as lighting?

4. Do you own a copy of the NFPA 780?

I DO NOT REALLY HAVE ANY CONCERNS. I JUST WANTED TO GET SOME VIEWS ON WHAT SHOULD BE DONE WITH THE COPPER CROSS. I SEE THAT IT IS JUST LIKE A TREE AND WHAT EVER HAPPENS TO IT WE COULD NOT STOP IT. I JUST HAVE PEOPLE HERE THAT THINK BECAUSE IT IS A LOT OF COPPER THAT IT SHOULD BE GROUNDED BECAUSE OF THE LIGHTNING IN THIS AREA.

THE CROSS WILL BE ON CONCRETE.

WE DO NOT HAVE ANY LIGHTS THAT WILL BE ON OR AROUND IT. I COULD SEE THEM ASKING FOR LIGHTS AROUND IT IN THE FUTURE.

THANK YOU,
MICHAEL HESTER
MASTER ELECTRICIAN
CAMPUS CRUSADE FOR CHRIST
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
I think it would be excessive, but you could consider the structure as being similar to a mast, spire, or flagpole and install a LPS per Chapter 5 of the NFPA 780.

I personally wouldn't worry about it one minute. If there is no loss of property or hazard to life considerations, there is no need to provide any protections against a strike to the structure.
 

netcom45850

Member
Location
Ohio
I would install a ground rod and bond the cross and rebar to it. This lightning protection in its simplest form. You want the top of the cross to be at the same potential as ground. Lightning is like a blind man it feels for things at a higher potential than ground. By bonding it lightning wont see it. You dont want lightning striking near any structure. This is the same as a light pole we run a ground from the panel, but also install a ground rod at the light. This makes the light pole at the same potential as ground. Have you heard or seen lightning strike a light pole?? I havent.
 

RUWIREDRITE

Senior Member
Copper Cross

CCCI,
I am trying to visualize the construction of this cross you want to erect in front of your facility.
A division of our company is an lightning protection advisor and installer. Is
the copper tubing of this structure plan to support this cross? At first, that not be a good idea if incased in concrete, because the copper will not withstand the chemicals in concrete and eventually arode and weaken.If the tubing is attached to another structural device or means does that insulate it from mother ground? I can inform you how to propery bond this metallic cross if you give me all the variables in which it is to be installed.As some of us all ready know, not all lighting comes from the sky as forethought so i just want you covered.
 
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bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
netcom45850 said:
I would install a ground rod and bond the cross and rebar to it. This lightning protection in its simplest form. You want the top of the cross to be at the same potential as ground. Lightning is like a blind man it feels for things at a higher potential than ground. By bonding it lightning wont see it. You dont want lightning striking near any structure. This is the same as a light pole we run a ground from the panel, but also install a ground rod at the light. This makes the light pole at the same potential as ground. Have you heard or seen lightning strike a light pole?? I havent.

No offense, but this is all non-sense.

1. Lightning does not seek out one object over another.
2. Grounding and/or bonding don?t prevent lightning from striking an object.
3. The purpose of a LPS is to POSSIBLY mitigate the effects of lightning striking an object, not preventing it from happening.
4. Light/power poles may be the most commonly struck objects in the US behind communication and radio towers.
5. Lightning doesn't care what it strikes, it doesn't care if lightning protection has been installed or not, it doesn't care what potential one object may have to another or to the earth, and lightning certainly cannot be deterred, avoided or prevented by any known method.
 

RUWIREDRITE

Senior Member
5 rules

5 rules

I totally disagree with your statements, call me a lil better informed, sorry.The bottom line in avoiding a lightning strike to any object is minimizing the potential to do so. Ben Franklin had a vision, Einstein and Edison perfected it.
 
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RUWIREDRITE

Senior Member
test

test

Byan,
To test your theories stated above would you be willing to attire yourself with a 6 foot golf umbrella coated with aluminum foil through an orchard of cherry trees during a lightning storm,but remember as you stated "lightning does not seek out one object over another" Remember this is only a test.lol
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Well, I am sorry but you are wrong too. It appears you are more MIS-informed rather than better informed. :(

And I am somewhat familiar with the works of Franklin and Edison.
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
It appears, based on your comments, that you confusion lies with what actual function a LPS has verses the function of properly bonding the LPS to other systems and other metallic parts of a structure.

I'll also use an example like yours above to see if I can help you understand, but instead of NJ/PA, I will consider my own back yard here in Florida where the strike density of lightning is perhaps three times greater than where you reside and work.

Let's say we have two of these copper cross structures in a large open field, no trees, no other tall objects for hundreds of yards. We place the two structures 100' from one another. On one, we attach a strike termination device (lightning rod), a down conductor, and a connection to a ground terminal (ground rod). On the other one, we do nothing.

Now bring in a storm. The physics that support the early formation of lightning is very theoretical and even controversial, but what can be said is that at some point in the cloud structure, a build up of charges begins a stepped leader approach towards earth. At this point in the sequence of events, earth nor earth bound objects have an influence or direction on where this leader forms and extends. At some point, the attractive forces brought on by the approaching leader begin to strip charges from earth bound objects, including our two copper structures. These charges form streamers, which extend upwards towards the sky. Eventually, a streamer or streamers connect with the downward leader, and the flash or several flashes occur.

Now, back to my opening paragraph. What possible effect does the LPS on the one structure have over the lightning event verses the other with no LPS installed? Nothing. It is possible the air terminal on the one structure may effect the formation and characteristics of its streamer, but it certainly doesn't prevent it from forming.

The fact is that even in Florida, and even during a storm, and even in an open field, the probability of one or the other structure from being struck are effectively the same. Possibly as high as one in a million. The LPS on one does not change the strike probability. It does nothing to stop a leader from forming in a cloud, it does nothing to stop the formation of an upward streamer, and it does nothing to stop the flow of current when the connection between the two is made.

The one and only function of the LPS is to POSSIBLY direct some or most of the surge event away from the structure through an intentional path to earth. The only time the term "potential" comes into play is with the bonding of other systems and metallic parts.

Bonding helps prevent the possible side flash or flash over of surge current from on system to the other or from one object to another. By bonding all the conductive objects together, inductive effects are reduced and no potential is created. While this is one of the most important aspects of the LPS or any other electrical system, it has nothing to do with whether or not lightning will strike.

It is important that you understand what an LPS can and can't do, and you especially need to make this clear to your customers you sell these systems to. If they are under the premise that the LPS system you install will prevent lightning from striking their structure, you have failed them. If they are under the premise that the LPS system you install will absolutely prevent the structure or their equipment from being damaged during a lightning event, you have failed them.

The components of a good LPS start with good luck. As crude as that sounds, it is true.

Please feel free to PM me if you would like some suggestions on good books and websites for the study of lightning and lightning protection, or if you would like to discuss the life and times of Franklin and Edison.

Take Care.
 

netcom45850

Member
Location
Ohio
Rebuttle

Rebuttle

bphgravity said:
No offense, but this is all non-sense.

1. Lightning does not seek out one object over another.
2. Grounding and/or bonding don?t prevent lightning from striking an object.
3. The purpose of a LPS is to POSSIBLY mitigate the effects of lightning striking an object, not preventing it from happening.
4. Light/power poles may be the most commonly struck objects in the US behind communication and radio towers.
5. Lightning doesn't care what it strikes, it doesn't care if lightning protection has been installed or not, it doesn't care what potential one object may have to another or to the earth, and lightning certainly cannot be deterred, avoided or prevented by any known method.

I disagree, for years houses with metal roofs were bonded to ground. Metal buildings are bonded to ground. Providing grounds does prevent lightning strikes. And remeber lightnig does not have to strike directly it could be miles away and induce itself into nearby metallic items, but by having a ground the surge goes directly to ground limiting the damaging effects. If you still feel you right, try this go out in a storm hold a 10' piece of emt up above your head and see for youself, if you survive take that same piece of pipe stick in the ground and stand near it. Or just take my word for it...
 

ceknight

Senior Member
netcom45850 said:
Providing grounds does prevent lightning strikes.

Maybe I'm just having a senior moment, but.....the fact that you're asserting that claim isn't going to just make that claim suddenly become true. Neither is your thought experiment.

Got some real evidence? :)
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Quite the hot thread going here.

Folks, I have been here, well, since I've been here and I do know one thing: Bryan Holland does his research, it's his passion, hobby and calling. It would greatly behoove the folks who are taking the opposite position to Bryan to reconsider.

When I bought into the "grounding prevents lightning" nonsense I was quickly rebuffed here on the forum. When I went searching the internet for support of the idea, I found nothing but complete denial of the idea.

Grounding does not prevent strikes. It's mans little attempt at controlling the outcome, is all. I invite you to check your pride, and do some real research.

Bryan has, and continues to do so, much to our benefit.
 

Ragin Cajun

Senior Member
Location
Upstate S.C.
I see a LPS as a means to minimize damage from a direct strike and direct most of the strike to ground via the downcomers. If you are in the so called "cone of protection" are you will be less likely to get directly hit, but it can still happen.

On the other hand, my guess is that given two structures, one with a LPS and the other without a LPS, the one with would tend to see more strikes since it has provided an elevated ground path that would be more attractive toward the formation of a lightning strike. (IMHO)

"Fire away"

RC
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
One thing for sure is that no one can make absolutes when it comes to the topic of lightning. We might as well be talking about the nature of GOD, and we all know how those discussions turn out. Anyone can post almost anything about lightning and who really knows if it is right or wrong?

I keep two phone numbers in my contacts list for question likes these. One is Dr. Martin Ulman and the other is Dr. Vladmir Rakov, both from the University of Florida. When I contact one of them and they give the answer, "I don't know.", it reminds me that I have no business assuming I know anything when it comes to lightning. They both will readily admit there is more they don't know then do know when it comes to lightning.

So, I will say this with certain confidence.

1. Will an LPS prevent a building from being struck by lightning - there is no evidence to support this statement.

2. Will an LPS cause a building to be struck by lightning - there is no evidence to support this statement.

3. Will an LPS protect a building that is struck by lightning - there IS some evidence for this statement.

So if I was a betting man, I would put all my wooden nickels on #3.


Back to the discussion. If you are to assume that an LPS will prevent a building from being struck by lightning, then how do explain why buildings with quite robust LPS's get struck every day?

Take for example two very popular buildings of the US, the Empire State Building and the Washington Monument. Both have extensive LPS's yet both have been and will continue to be struck. Communication towers have some of the most advanced LPS's, yet are struck often. Even Independence Hall itself in Philadelphia gets struck by lightning, though it still has the original Franklin System intact.

Another interesting note is that very tall structures get struck much more often on the side of the building then they do directly on top where all the lightning protection is. The same can be said about balloons and other floatables tethered to the earth. Many times these objects are struck well below the highest point. Just some food for thought.
 
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