Copycat Method

[George Stolz]

Yesterday I heard of a class that's about half the price of a normal class, which caught my attention. It's a class for guys about to take our state tests, and is taught by someone involved with the test at the state level, as best I can tell.

What really caught my attention, is that one day of the class is pretty normal, calcs and stuff. The second day seems entirely devoted to copying down ("in your own words") test questions, and answers. The instructor informs the class that if they memorize everything presented, and answer correctly, then they will have up to (something like) 50% of the test passed, and then can focus on the portion of the test they haven't memorized.

Does anyone else see this as a totally bunk method, or is it just me? I just can't believe that someone would expect someone to memorize items that they could more easily be trained to find themselves, right in the codebook sitting on their lap while taking the test!

Thoughts?

 

[charlie b]

Re: Copycat Method

Half price, huh? I hope they got their money?s worth.

I?ll give you my thoughts by taking it back to basics (or at least my view of what the basics should be).
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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The purpose of state licensing is to protect the interests of the public. This is achieved by ensuring that the people who work independently on electrical installations have demonstrated some minimum required level of knowledge and experience.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The purpose of the exam is to verify that the person has attained the minimum required level of knowledge.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The purposes of a preparation course are (1) To inform the students of the nature of the exam and of proven techniques for successfully passing the exam, (2) To fill in the gaps the students might have in their knowledge of code, means, and methods, and (3) To give the students practice in looking up code requirements and in solving sample problems.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It seems to me that the course you describe will not fulfill this purpose.

Half price, huh? I don?t think they are getting their money?s worth.

 

[luckyshadow]

Re: Copycat Method

The prep course I took a few eeks ago was just that. We spent 3 hours a night doing calcs, chasing answers in the code book, (being timed of course),asking questions , and learning testing techniques ( do test back wards , remove index from code book, to read ALL of the question etc) you know little things to save time. Seconds turn into minutes. Not to count the endless hours at home studying .

 

[mdshunk]

Re: Copycat Method

This "teaching technique" is not so different from others I have taken. I took an HVAC cert test in which actual previous years tests were passed out that had the correct answers noted. The test I took was about 90% identical to the one that was passed out in class.

This one, being taught by someone associated with the test, seems like it might be crossing the line just a tad.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Copycat Method

Originally posted by charlie b:
I don't think they are getting their money's worth.

My thoughts exactly.

I left out one interesting detail: They are taught to at least write down the page number of the codes involved, if not memorize them. When is the last time you looked at a page number?

[ June 14, 2005, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[zog]

Re: Copycat Method

I take pride in "teching them to fish" in my courses but it seems most students expect to have the answers to the tests given to them or have a post test be the same as a pre-test, apparently this method must be used alot by someone out there.

 

[growler]

Re: Copycat Method

A few years ago I read an article about a man that obtained his second mate's ticket on a large oil tanker without having any experience at all. He bought his AB papers in one port, then traded up for 3 rd. mate and then second mate without serving on a ship in any capacity at all. It was a journalist trying to prove that there were no safety considerations at all in the maritime industry.
Even though most contractors have experience and education it would be just as easy to fake the whole thing.
In my opinion, classes that teach the test help to defeat the purpose of licensing in the first place, Public Safety. If an electrician has any formal training and field experience they don't need the cheating tricks. And unless a license is a verification of education & field experience, it's completely useless. You can't possibly teach all the math and theory needed to understand the code in a few days so the classes are forced to teach the test. I can't believe that states don't require a minimum of formal training. The union does and people still line up to get in. If we keep getting our education from a vending machine,we will end up a third world country.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Copycat Method

Having the license does not mean you know anything.It just means you managed to look up the answers fast enough to pass.Once worked for an EC that rented his masters for many years till he passed after tenth try.

 

[haskindm]

Re: Copycat Method

This is called "teaching to the test". The students are not being taught the NEC or the information that they need to be a competent electrician, they are being given the information they need to pass a particular exam. If the exam changes, their training will be fairly useless. There are some general test taking "hints" that students need, such as answer the questions that you are sure of first, dont spend too much time on any one questin, etc. But the majority of the time should be spent on teaching them code, basic theory, etc. which they need to know to succeeed in the trade, but probably won't lear "on the job".
This is a constant problem and we are seeing the same thing in the "no child left behind initiative", students get taught to pass a test, not given the tools they need to succeed.

 

[sparky_magoo]

Re: Copycat Method

Hello Gentlemen,

I recently passed the California General Journeyman Exam.

I was terribly disappointed with the questions asked. The test was much too basic. To prepare for the exam, I bought Mike Holt's "Electrical Exam Preparation. I went through the book and am able to pass all of the test questions.

When I took my state test, I was allowed four hours. I completed the test in one hour and eighteen minutes. There were not any substantial questions.

This is what concerns me. Most of the guys I know who have passed this test think they are now super electricians. Not one of them could do a feeder calc. if his life depended on it.

In California, electricians with this stupid card are in great demand (at least where I live). It's sad to think passing an overly basic test is the measure of a journeyman electrician.

I love the idea of requiring electricians to demonstrate knowledge of the trade, but this test is a joke.

I am not a great electrician, but years of experience and training have tought me much more than California's test imply.

[ June 22, 2005, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: sparky_magoo ]

 

[charlie]

Re: Copycat Method

sparky_magoo, that just emphasized what I used to tell my students (I don't teach regularly anymore). I really impressed on them that graduating from the apprenticeship program was just the start of their education, not the end of it. They would have to study trade magazines, the NEC, text books, and other standards until they retired from the trade if they wanted to be good, knowledgeable and wanted to get ahead. I don't know of a single employer who wants a flash in the pan.

 

[mdshunk]

Re: Copycat Method

Originally posted by charlie:
I don't know of a single employer who wants a flash in the pan.

This is why part of my employee application process includes my own little written exam. Licensed or not, I want to find out what they know or don't know for myself. It's disturbing sometimes.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Copycat Method

You guys know I am not as huge a fan of licensing as most of you are. Being a cynic, I suspect it is mostly used as a device to reduce competition and raise prices for those already in the field. But than, like I said, I am cynical about anything government does to "help" me or to "protect" me.

To me there are two kinds of test prep classes. Those that teach you how to pass the test, and those that don't. If the test is so poorly designed that you can learn to pass it in a few hours without actually understanding the material, than what good is it in the first place?

OTOH, if it is deliberately constructed so that most people fail it (which seems to be the case in many states) than there will be a proliferation of courses designed to help you get 70% (or whatever the magic number is) by whatever means necessary.

I personally do not see how a written test can determine if a guy can bend a pipe correctly, or has any of the other mechanical skills needed to be a qualified electrician. If they were truely serious about it, the test would be a two part test. A written part and a skills part. I'd be willing to bet most would fail the skills part too.

 

[pierre]

Re: Copycat Method

From Jim Walker
"Having the license does not mean you know anything.It just means you managed to look up the answers fast enough to pass."

This may be true for some, there are others who actually have learned.

I teach a 32 hour class, where we actually spend about 40 hours in class.
This is barely enough time to teach the average mechanic who has had 12 to 20 years experience in the field.

They spend 40 hours in class and I give them another 96 hours of homework over this time period.
The single most important impediment to understanding the code is the lack of understanding how the NEC is written, mixed with reading skill level.
My first two weeks are showing them the heirarchy of the code and the definitions and table of contents with the PARTS - to me the key to passing a timed test.
Then we practice reading the PARTS and learning what the questions are, and finding which CHAPTER, ARTICLE, PART, then SECTION to locate that question.

They literally hate the class until about the 6th or 7th week when the "light" comes on and the process sinks in, then they realize how to answer MOST of the questions, enough to pass.

One thing to remember:
A license holder does not really need to know any electrical at all to run the business. He can hire qualified people to perform the installations.
I see some excellent mechanics who pass the test, but do not know how to run the business, and in a few years are back working for someone who does know how to run their business. The skills of running a business are not all electrical - just a small portion.
MANAGEMENT - makes for excellent business

[ June 28, 2005, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]

 

[growler]

Re: Copycat Method

Bob, are you against all licensing or just electrical. If it's impossible to determine aptitude by written test then how did you become an engineer. Were the guy that designed the space shuttle in his senior year of college. Written test weren't designed to test total proficiency as an electrician. That's why references and documented experience are also included. I think you are one of those people that believes that if we can't have a utopia we should have anarchy. Most of us live in a world somewhere in the middle and do the best we can ( a perfect system hasn't been developed and anarchy leads to ruin).

 

[roger]

Re: Copycat Method

Pierre and Growler, excellent posts.

Roger

 

[pierre]

Re: Copycat Method

Thanks Roger!!!

 

[petersonra]

Re: Copycat Method

Originally posted by growler:
Bob, are you against all licensing or just electrical. If it's impossible to determine aptitude by written test then how did you become an engineer.

I am not a PE, and it's unlikely I will ever be one, so there was never a written test for me to become an engineer. Nor did anyone ever want me to pass such a test.

I would say I am extremely skeptical about licensing in general. I have seen very little evidence that government run licensing schemes actually "protect the public", in fact, as often as not, they have the opposite effect. Most of the time, the licensing boards are run by the very industry it purports to regulate, which makes for a conflict of interest that usually results in the largest benefits going to the industry being regulated.

It is almost unheard of for a licensing board to act harshly against one of its own for even gros incompetance. This includes such professions as medical doctors and lawyers. If the medical boards are unable to rid themselves of the incompetent doctors, I have my doubts that they will get rid of incompetent electricians.

And often the licensing boards use their state given powers to punish those in the industry who try to change the industry in ways that do benefit the public, but might not benefit the industry.

In many states you have to get a license to cut toe nails and than paint them. Do you really believe this protects the public? From what? Women (and a few confused men) have been painting their toe nails w/o a license for thousands of years. I am not aware that there is rampant negative issues with unlicensed toe nail painting.

In Illinois, I seem to recall you are required to have 2000 hours of training to cut hair. Do you really think it takes 2000 hours of training to give a haircut? My wife cuts my hair with a clipper set we bought at Sam's club for $20. No training at all was required. Just reading the instructions and watching a 20 minute video.

I am absolutely convinced that the primary goal of licensing is to reduce competition, thus driving up prices for those already in the field. Any benefit to the public is secondary, and probably unintentional.

JMHO.

 

[69boss302]

Re: Copycat Method

I'm on your band wagon Bob. And just for the record I cut my own hair, when One of those nasty things get's in the way. Usually need a hunting license to find any hair to cut though

 

[growler]

Re: Copycat Method

"Bob" I can believe that you haven't taken the engineering exam to become a PE but I can't believe that you haven't taken any test to get to your current position. I'll bet that when you went for your first job they ask for some proof of your abilities ( diploma or degree) and then maybe a short test to determine aptitude or skill level. I can't think of a single job that doen't have some sort of requirment to get in the door. I know that you think that you have a solution ( to change the industry for the better). What changes would you make to insure public safety, professonal competence , consumer protection and cost control. I would really like to hear your plan to improve the industry. Your ideas may be great but so far you have only bad mouthed a system that is not perfect. What's the replacement. Do you really think we should abolish the requirment for a driver's license, a pilot's license ( they test for those ).