cost of electricity
- Thread starter 49bill
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: cost of electricity
You save some, as the smaller size wire creates more resistance, which creates heat, savings depends on load and distance. circuits should never be loaded past 80% of the branch circuit rating, IE 20 amps don't go over 16 amps.
You save some, as the smaller size wire creates more resistance, which creates heat, savings depends on load and distance. circuits should never be loaded past 80% of the branch circuit rating, IE 20 amps don't go over 16 amps.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: cost of electricity
I had an old book from trade school that did a comparison of using #14 wire vs. #12 wire in an average dwelling. According to their calculations there would be some savings. I can't remember how much of a savings, but it was measurable. Can't find the book either.
Trevor
I had an old book from trade school that did a comparison of using #14 wire vs. #12 wire in an average dwelling. According to their calculations there would be some savings. I can't remember how much of a savings, but it was measurable. Can't find the book either.
Trevor
rick hart
Senior Member
- Location
- Dallas Texas
Re: cost of electricity
It's kinda like looking at the resistance of smaller wire being utilized as supplemental heat for the space...
Depends on the price per kWH, but yeah.
It's kinda like looking at the resistance of smaller wire being utilized as supplemental heat for the space...
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: cost of electricity
It would cost more to install, and cost less to operate. Which of these two is the higher impact? Hard to say.
LawnGuyLandSparky
Senior Member
Re: cost of electricity
Found these interesting items there:
June 14, 2005
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
New Research Leads to Electrical Code Change
NEW YORK ? Almost every home has electrical cables bundled together in various locations, and those bundled wires typically run through holes in the wood framing. Do such bundles get hot enough to create a fire hazard? The answer is ?not likely, but it could happen,? especially when a combination of undersized wiring and high current loads are present, says Bill Black, vice president of wire & cable for the Copper Development Association.
Recent research has shown that bundled cables passing through holes in building materials can reach dangerously high temperatures, particularly when outdoor and attic temperatures are also elevated.
The Trouble with Bundles
Overheating is compounded when some of the wires are not only bundled tightly together but are also carrying heavy electric-current loads. Black says, in tests conducted recently, the worst scenario occurred when loaded, bundled wires passed vertically through a hole in building materials such as wood wall framing. According to most construction codes, such holes must be ?fire-stopped? with insulating material. Although this is intended to control the spread of a house fire, it has the unintentional effect of preventing heat generated in the hole from escaping. Under these conditions, wire temperatures can approach, and sometimes exceed, the maximum rated temperature of wire-insulation materials (typically 194 degrees Fahrenheit).
New Code Requirements
Faced with these research results, the CDA, which sponsored the research, proposed a change to the National Electrical Code. Though the new Code does not prohibit wire bundling, it does require that measures be taken, known as ?derating,? to prevent excessive heat buildup.
Bundling can be especially hazardous above the electrical panel, where many wires converge and the loads are concentrated. It?s a good idea to visually check for bundles of wires throughout your home, Black recommends.
If you have doubts about the safety of the wiring in your home, you should call a qualified electrician. If you and your electrician determine that unsafe or hazardous conditions exist, you need to take immediate corrective action. You can also visit our Building Wire section for more information about residential electrical wiring.
And...
According to Michael Clendenin, executive director of the Electrical Safety Foundation International (ESFI), ?More than 50 million homes in the USA need to be inspected for unsafe wiring systems. The people living in these homes are taking on an unacceptable risk by not getting their electrical wiring systems inspected and, if necessary, upgraded. The ESFI and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission recommend electrical inspections for any home 40 years old and older, any home more than 10 years old that has had renovations or the addition of major appliances, and any time a home changes hands.?
Found these interesting items there:
June 14, 2005
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
New Research Leads to Electrical Code Change
NEW YORK ? Almost every home has electrical cables bundled together in various locations, and those bundled wires typically run through holes in the wood framing. Do such bundles get hot enough to create a fire hazard? The answer is ?not likely, but it could happen,? especially when a combination of undersized wiring and high current loads are present, says Bill Black, vice president of wire & cable for the Copper Development Association.
Recent research has shown that bundled cables passing through holes in building materials can reach dangerously high temperatures, particularly when outdoor and attic temperatures are also elevated.
The Trouble with Bundles
Overheating is compounded when some of the wires are not only bundled tightly together but are also carrying heavy electric-current loads. Black says, in tests conducted recently, the worst scenario occurred when loaded, bundled wires passed vertically through a hole in building materials such as wood wall framing. According to most construction codes, such holes must be ?fire-stopped? with insulating material. Although this is intended to control the spread of a house fire, it has the unintentional effect of preventing heat generated in the hole from escaping. Under these conditions, wire temperatures can approach, and sometimes exceed, the maximum rated temperature of wire-insulation materials (typically 194 degrees Fahrenheit).
New Code Requirements
Faced with these research results, the CDA, which sponsored the research, proposed a change to the National Electrical Code. Though the new Code does not prohibit wire bundling, it does require that measures be taken, known as ?derating,? to prevent excessive heat buildup.
Bundling can be especially hazardous above the electrical panel, where many wires converge and the loads are concentrated. It?s a good idea to visually check for bundles of wires throughout your home, Black recommends.
If you have doubts about the safety of the wiring in your home, you should call a qualified electrician. If you and your electrician determine that unsafe or hazardous conditions exist, you need to take immediate corrective action. You can also visit our Building Wire section for more information about residential electrical wiring.
And...
According to Michael Clendenin, executive director of the Electrical Safety Foundation International (ESFI), ?More than 50 million homes in the USA need to be inspected for unsafe wiring systems. The people living in these homes are taking on an unacceptable risk by not getting their electrical wiring systems inspected and, if necessary, upgraded. The ESFI and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission recommend electrical inspections for any home 40 years old and older, any home more than 10 years old that has had renovations or the addition of major appliances, and any time a home changes hands.?
Re: cost of electricity
In general, for 120v or higher voltage wiring,the limits on current carrying is based on therodynamics, not voltage drop, unless run distance is very long.
For #14 wire @ 15A, there is 0.56 watts per foot
For #12 wire @ 20A, there is 0.64 watts per foot
For #10 wire @ 30A, there is 0.90 watts per foot
The more thero-insulation around the wire the warmer it gets. SOxx wire has some heavy blanketing.
Plastic conduit is worse at heat dissipation then metal. Each conductor carrying current generates additional heat.
The prime concern is long term degradation to wire insulators that are subjected to elevated temp. Eventually insulation cracks and possibly short out.
As to get a 'feel' for what a few of watts mean in terms of heat build up, try taking a 30 ohm 5 watt power resistor, hold it wrapped in palm of hand, with jumper wires connect it across a car battery. See how long you can hold it in the palm of your hand. This is 5 watts of heat.
In general, for 120v or higher voltage wiring,the limits on current carrying is based on therodynamics, not voltage drop, unless run distance is very long.
For #14 wire @ 15A, there is 0.56 watts per foot
For #12 wire @ 20A, there is 0.64 watts per foot
For #10 wire @ 30A, there is 0.90 watts per foot
The more thero-insulation around the wire the warmer it gets. SOxx wire has some heavy blanketing.
Plastic conduit is worse at heat dissipation then metal. Each conductor carrying current generates additional heat.
The prime concern is long term degradation to wire insulators that are subjected to elevated temp. Eventually insulation cracks and possibly short out.
As to get a 'feel' for what a few of watts mean in terms of heat build up, try taking a 30 ohm 5 watt power resistor, hold it wrapped in palm of hand, with jumper wires connect it across a car battery. See how long you can hold it in the palm of your hand. This is 5 watts of heat.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: cost of electricity
Nothing is for free. One part in the link may show some benefit, but the lose will be somewhere else in the whole.
It will cost a little more to install large conductors, but over time the cooler operation and smaller loses will result in savings. However, it took more energy and more material to produce the larger conductor thus the end savings are washed by the initial production.
When it is all said and done, we are consuming energy at exponential rates every 10 years. The majority of that energy being the generation of heat whether intentional or by matter of loses.
It would probably be more effective to simply conserve more rather than try to make the intial installation more effecient. Meaning, turn off you ceiling fans and seal your windows and doors rather than install oversized conductors.
Nothing is for free. One part in the link may show some benefit, but the lose will be somewhere else in the whole.
It will cost a little more to install large conductors, but over time the cooler operation and smaller loses will result in savings. However, it took more energy and more material to produce the larger conductor thus the end savings are washed by the initial production.
When it is all said and done, we are consuming energy at exponential rates every 10 years. The majority of that energy being the generation of heat whether intentional or by matter of loses.
It would probably be more effective to simply conserve more rather than try to make the intial installation more effecient. Meaning, turn off you ceiling fans and seal your windows and doors rather than install oversized conductors.
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