Cost over Safety

[Buck Parrish]

Indiana has proposed to not adopt any AFCI requirements 05 or 08. And no TR's or the 08 gfci requirements.
Their reasoning is they cost to much.
Now if every other state has it . If some ones death could have been prevented. If proven in court. Do you think there will be lawsuit (s)

Also I am wondering how many electricians will install them any way? And what would inspections have to say about that.
Here is the MH code alert http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/codealerts/20090413in.cfm

 

[Jljohnson]

I, for one, would not want to be a member of the "Electrical Advisory Committee" when the 1st preventable injury or fire occurs (and it will likely occur, Murphy's law is in effect)

 

[charlie]

Indiana's stance on AFCIs

Indiana's stance on AFCIs

. . . If some ones death could have been prevented. . .

That is always an argument but is it a valid one? Millions of dollars have been spent on that issue but the speed limit is still over 20 MPH and people would still be killed at 20. 90.1(A) "The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards . . ." Is it practical to spend more money on a device than is lost in fires in the State of Indiana or for that matter, the country? Assume I have a fire and I smell smoke, would I get out of my home? I think so. Assume I have a fire at night and the smoke detector goes off, would I get out of my home? I think so. If I didn't have smoke detectors or the batteries were dead, the house would be old enough that AFCIs would not be required either.

If you remove the emotion and passion from the equation, you are left with being practical. If I were building a home, I would have AFCIs installed and also TR receptacles. By the way, my argument is against the code requirement of AFCIs, not TR receptacles. Next cycle, if Panel 2 decides to permit Type NM cable to go to the first receptacle before requiring the remainder of the circuit to be protected with AFCIs, I believe I will change my mind about AFCIs. :smile:

The proposed rules for adopting the 2008 NEC and amending the 2005 Indiana Residential Code to match were published in the Indiana Register. Following is a link to the page where both (Indiana Residential Code and the Indiana Electrical Code) proposed rules reside. The date, time, and location of the public hearings is given at the end of the proposed rules should you want to attend. I assume I will see you at the meeting.
http://www.in.gov/legislative/iac/irtoc.htm?id=2.1&hdate=20090409&ldate=20090401

 

[charlie]

I, for one, would not want to be a member of the "Electrical Advisory Committee" when the 1st preventable injury or fire occurs (and it will likely occur, Murphy's law is in effect)

Assuming you are talking about Indiana's Electrical Advisory Committee, the committee did not remove the AFCIs or the TR receptacles from the Indiana requirements, the Indiana budget people did.

 

[wawireguy]

I think tamper resistant receptacles make more sense that AFCI's. Since receptacles are at kid height I think they are a good idea. AFCI's on the other hand protect against some improbable, maybe possible, not likely problem. I have people occasionally ask me if thier wiring is safe. I usually tell them that it's be working for many years without problem but it's prudent to have smoke alarms and insure they are checked along with batteries replaced. AFCI's are a waste of money.

 

[KevinVost]

Indiana has proposed to not adopt any AFCI requirements 05 or 08. And no TR's or the 08 gfci requirements.
Their reasoning is they cost to much.
Now if every other state has it . If some ones death could have been prevented. If proven in court. Do you think there will be lawsuit (s)

Also I am wondering how many electricians will install them any way? And what would inspections have to say about that. Here is the MH code alert http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/codealerts/20090413in.cfm

As an inspector, we enforce code. The code is the minimum required. If a contractor goes above and beyond the code on his/her install, I don't see how the inspector would have a problem. When I was working I told that to inspectors and I still believe it now that I am the inspector.

 

[Buck Parrish]

Yep , me too.
But I don't think I will be installing all afci breakers unless it is required. But really , it is only fair to give the customer an option. So, that I will do.
But chances are I would have to order them from out of state.

 

[Dwayne51]

I live in Alabama and we let each city decide which part of the code that they are going to enforce.They can either do all of it,or they can do which ever part they want . Most go with the tp plugs but not the arc fault breakers. When I was I contractor it was hard trying to remember with cities did what. I am now an inspector, so now I don't have to worry about what other cities comply with.

 

[weressl]

I, for one, would not want to be a member of the "Electrical Advisory Committee" when the 1st preventable injury or fire occurs (and it will likely occur, Murphy's law is in effect)

So, with the construction market being down, how many new installations are there in comparison to the existing installations? What is the ratio? 1000:1, or even less. How likely will this happen in a new installation when compared to old and older installations?

 

[pfalcon]

... If some ones death could have been prevented. If proven in court. Do you think there will be lawsuit (s)...

1) No one is proving anything in court without the lawsuit so you have the cart before the horse.
2) If no state adopted the provisions and someone speculates that someone might have been saved then there will be a lawsuit. So, yes, I believe there will be a lawsuit no matter how many or few adopt.
3) Finally the old adage "What price is a person's life?" starts with the quick answer of "The cost of someone else's life!" What do you say to a family whose kid died from a cheap car seat because they had to pay for the TRs? Oops! You gambled wrong? Real people have limited money. It isn't about whether they can pay $200 for all the TRs. It's about whether they can pay the $10,000 for all the different safety devices they have to buy that year. Cost adds up just like pennies in a jar. The car seat is worth more for the money as are many other safety devices.

 

[brian john]

How safe do we want to go. It is possible to make us 99.9 percent safe from injury no electricity in the house and sit on the couch never moving.