counsumers going with cheapest estimite.

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Riograndeelectric

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Lakewood Colorado
I am a an EC and work in the Denver,Colorado area. I am 1 man shop in business 3 years, electrician for 26 years. it seems here in denver customers are looking for the cheapest price on work and most do not want to pay extra price for pemits on jobs. I get calls for estimates and always inclued a permit cost for work that requires permit.
I am getting beat out on bids by other companys not pulling permits or using unlicensed help.

I use to give free estimate but am now charging $15.00 for estimates to help pay for gas.

I see a lot of EC not pulling pemits and also giving very low bids. I know my prices are resonable. as my repeat customers always are happy with my rates . I belive some of the other 1 man shops are just biddng work just to make wages and do not consider overhead and profit nor insurnaces wear and tear on vehicles . they are happy making $30.00 per hour

Hot tubs are even more scary the last couple of qoutes I gave for a hot tub included permit but home owner said they did not want to pay eaxtra price and hot tub company said they do not need permit. I even seen hot tubs that are not wired per per there listing. #8 wire with #10 Grnd or running SER Cable gorund when hot tub specs out #6 most of ones I have wired require 50 amp 4 wire #6 copper this incleds full size ground wire or running ser cable.

do any other EC in other areas have the same problem with home owners taking cheapest prcie and not wanting permit for work. or using a hnady man becuse he was cheaper.

I hate to have to start doing work with out permits but one has to eat and be competitive. I always provide a high quality job and dont take short cuts. but I may have to start just being just a stupid electrician and give up on quilty work

it will take an Electrical fire before customers wake up.
 
Keep doing what you are doing. you will be fine in the end, it takes time for people to learn that the cheap guy is cheap for a reason. I do fire restoration work because people used the cheap guys.
 
Permits protect neither consumers nor electricians. Zillions of electrical projects have been done, over the years, without permits and they are still performing quite well. There is no substitute (permits, inspections, NEC etc) for good electrical practice.

You see, all lawers, accountants, doctors, etc work without permits. Their credentials are sufficient. Why are the electricians not trustworthy?
 
You really need to give them the option of permit tor no permit. Or you will loose 1/2 of your bids. FACT!
When I loose out on a non permitted job because I'm higher I always send an anonamous Email to code enforcement & get them busted.
But your real problem in colorado is people will work for less to live in your beautifull state, just to be around the skiing bike & hiking trails, & nice weather between jobs. Actually I'm thinking of the same & moving there to low bid the others and you even more!

Here in Texas its different Everyone trys hard to be high bid because its too hot to crawl in attics or work outside. If there is no work all we can do is find an ice house to cool off till the phone rings again.
 
77401...."I always send a anonamous (sic) E-mail to code enforcement & get them busted".
So you're the guy.....
tattletale, tattletale, hang your britches on a nail.
steve
 
I think it may be a problem here, too, but not as much as it is in your area. Most people I deal with don't seem to have a problem with me pulling a permit, and the few that have expressed any reluctance are more at ease after I tell them the inspector is only going to look at my work and won't be going through the house top to bottom and writing them up for any little thing they find.

The state is serious about permits. I know another EC who got nailed once for unpermitted work, and he was formally warned not to let that happen again. I've also seen electricians severely fined for contracting without an EC license or doing unpermitted work.

The only way you can justify your higher rates is to provide more value to the consumer. One way to do this is to let people know you are a properly licensed pro who does top-quality work and who isn't afraid to have an inspector look over the job when you are done with it. There are subtle ways to accomplish this.

For example, I list my EC license number in my e-mail signature, on bids, on invoices, business cards, etc. even though it's not legally required (it's only required to be on my truck). When I do an estimate, I talk about safety, good design, and code requirements. I also discuss what the inspection will entail and my experience dealing with various inspectors, and I make it clear that permits/inspections are a legal requirement. I also list the permit as a separate line item in the estimate. When the customer then gets an estimate from Joe the Handyman, they will probably notice that Joe doesn't list his license number anywhere, that he doesn't mention anything about permits, and doesn't say anything about code requirements. The customer might then realize that dealing with a pro is a better way to go.

If all else fails, call the AHJ. I've turned in plenty of unlicensed handymen who advertise electrical work. The AHJ has made them stop advertising. I've done jobs where the HO's neighbor turned them in for having illegal work done. The AHJs are usually happy to respond to these kind of complaints, and we shouldn't have to feel bad about turning in the hacks. I spent a lot of time, effort, and money to become properly licensed, and I shouldn't have to compete with hacks who think it's OK to operate illegally. You shouldn't either.
 
While most of you know I am suspicious of government mandates in this area, for multiple reasons, if a permit is actually required, IMO you ought to go pull one to do the work.

Is it possible the people not pulling permits are doing work that does not require a permit in the first place?
 
Quote: "Permits protect neither consumers nor electricians"

Permits and inspections, where required, protect the consumer, from non compliant work, and the possible loss, of coverage from their insurance underwriter.

The electrician that does work, without a permit, or inspection, where required, exposes himself, and his insurer, to open liability, the consumer is put in a position where they are also exposed to fines, and loss of coverage, not something any professional would do.

Look at any state board website, to see the violations, and fines paid by contractors that decide the laws don't apply to them.

How would you like to be the contractor, that wired a pool without a permit, and then there was an accident.

Hang in there, it took us years to build a business, when you first starting, you may be tempted, to grab any job, at any price, this is something that you will overcome.
 
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petersonra said:
While most of you know I am suspicious of government mandates in this area, for multiple reasons, if a permit is actually required, IMO you ought to go pull one to do the work.

Is it possible the people not pulling permits are doing work that does not require a permit in the first place?
Click to expand...

Unlikely. State law here says that a permit is required for everything except "minor repair work." So unless you're swapping out a switch, receptacle or fixture, you pretty much need a permit. I imagine the rules are not hugely different across the country in this regard.

Just yesterday a homeowner got stuck paying me for over four hours of troubleshooting a circuit that was partially dead. After tracing wires all over the house and running into a lot of dead ends, I eventually discovered a junction box hidden behind a ceiling that is almost certainly the cause of the problem. Had someone gotten a permit and inspection, the j-box probably would not have been buried, and I would have been able to find the problem a lot faster. So the current homeowner gets stuck paying a large troubleshooting bill because the previous homeowner decided for himself that he was qualified to do electrical and remodeling work and didn't need to bother with permits or inspections.

I deal with a lot of shoddy electrical work, and I think a lot of it could have been prevented if there had been an inspection. I don't have a problem with homeowners doing their own electrical work, as long as they have to follow the same rules we do. That means they have to pull permits and get their work inspected.
 
In colorado state law/Electrical board says a permit is required for any addtions to the electrical systems . My rule of thumb is adding couple of outlets or lights or wirng new A/C unit ok no pemrit . Hot tubs, remodels even a bath remodel than I pull permit.

Most home owners do not want the permit bacuse thet are afraid that there property taxes wil increase becuse the elctrical work was an improvment.
I have good realtionships with inspectors as I do not hide any thing from them.

the worst is the hot tub sales person who tell joe home owner that you do not need a permit. I had an inspector come to the house to inspect my Hotub wirng and aslked him to tell home owner and hot tub sales that hot tubs do require a permit and if caught with out pemit than permitt fee is doubled.
I tell customers the same thing that Inspectors is only going to look at my work and not entire house.

I just went a customer house today to give estimate to install 2 lights and 1 ceilng fan. I climbed up into the attic and found that the some one had re wired the house and used single conductor THHN wire with no raceway and spliced to romex with out a box and open junction boxes. kithchnen outlets and GFI test for no ground but are wired wit NM with ground. found a J box coverd over by bath room mirror.
I advised home owner s to contact an Attorney and the state Electrical board. The home owner showed me a letter on an Electricians letter head saying they had done the wirng in the house. while no one knows to what extent the electrician rewired or wired .


I have thought many a times about calling the building dept to notify them about work being performed with a permit.
There are to many want to be Electricians and Handyman. Or Electricians who do not know what they are doing but low ball the price only to go out of business.
 
hillbilly said:
77401...."I always send a anonamous (sic) E-mail to code enforcement & get them busted".
So you're the guy.....
tattletale, tattletale, hang your britches on a nail.
steve
Click to expand...
Damn right I do, let them shop bids get 5 prices & go with a low ball handyman.
I've even turned in my own jobs that should have a permits but didn't, only I'd call the plumbing department so I don't caught, it just makes everyone have to comply.

I like the thread I read the other night.
Why do we have to pull permits when our doctor, Lawyers or CPA doesn't? Isn't our name on a receipt enough?
Permits are just another hidden Tax our cities can get away with. Its like lets tax the uneducated Tradesmen, they are not organinized enough to stop us like the guys with master Degrees are. Just like having to have a Tag or License for our dogs. Have you ever lost a dog & the City put out a notice or trace your dog by the license number?
 
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Question.....I do my own electrical work as I am sure most all you do.....when problems arise around the house..I attempt to repair them...I am a terrible plumber......When I call for plumbing repairs, I get at least two estimates...sometimes more....some offer free estimates and some charge a small fee....when I have all the estimates before me. I usually choose the middle estimate....is the plumber licensed?.....Is he (she) insured? How much experience do they have?....Do they have references?...Maybe in the immediate area.....what warranty do they offer? How soon can they start?...How long will it take?...How much do they charge?....will a permit be pulled, if necessary?...All this I feel is necessary....so, when someone calls me to perform electrical work....I am not surprized when these questions are asked of me....I am surprized when the customer does not care!....The old saying "you pay for what you get" is definately one I believe in! The customer usually goes for the cheapest estimate because they do not know any better! I take the time to explain why I charge what I do.....Do you?
 
In regards to "the inspectors won't be looking over the entire house" comment, and I understand it is not thier normal practice but I have had them make us replace exsisting stuff. Someone had a hottub installed with no insulated ground, we were required to fix that before the inspector would pass a service upgrade. And another made us pull the appropriate wire to an airhandler in an attic that was installed and wired by the HVAC guys on an addition we had a permit on. The addition was on the back of the house and they just cut a supply in the exsisting wall and extended some returns, yet never mentioned to us or even included in the s-copy an upgraded attic unit.
 
Let the ignorant consumers have the low ball prices and the consequences. For anyone I've ever hired including attorney, accountant, and mechanic, I've looked for personal references. I get most of my customers the same way. The customers described in the OP are not looking for a reputable contractor. Look for customers who are.
 
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