Course for NFPA 79 & related

[megloff11x]

Can anyone recommend a good course or instructor for NFPA 79 Industrial Machinery and related topics? I'm out here in the sticks - Salt Lake City is about the nearest big city - 6hrs away.

I have really hairsplitting annoying questions because nothing we get is mundane. Much is hazardous location too.

Matt

 

[petersonra]

I have never heard of any NFPA79 courses.

I have not run into much hairsplitting on NFPA79 issues. Maybe you could relate some of them. I would find it interesting. A fair amount of what passes for common knowledge on NFPA79 is just plain nonsense.

 

[todd99]

Take a look at the link below. I attended this seminar a few years ago, I thought it was very informative. I believe they also have a seminar on classified locations.

Todd

http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/product...al+Development+Seminars&src=catalog#TabAnchor

 

[megloff11x]

I have never heard of any NFPA79 courses.

I have not run into much hairsplitting on NFPA79 issues. Maybe you could relate some of them. I would find it interesting. A fair amount of what passes for common knowledge on NFPA79 is just plain nonsense.

Bob

My favorite was being told to implement an extra overspeed protection on a listed motor control system that had it built in, but this supplemental over speed protection didn't have to be listed or even tested to any standard.

Another was an auctioneer speed rattling off of did I meet the following industry specific and CE standard numbers. This was followed by a number of interpretations and explanations of same, and a refusal to let me see the written words.

While NRTL listed equipment does not fall under NFPA 79, this and other standards are used as a basis for getting certified/listed.

Most of my regulatory headaches are calling BS on made up rules. This is why I wish NFPA 79 and other standards would spell it out in greater detail. I like to get an authoritative answer to bring back to the table, even to the inane questions that I pass on. It also helps to have a second opinion.

I want machinery that is safe and practical and simple to deal with.

Matt

 

[petersonra]

Bob
My favorite was being told to implement an extra overspeed protection on a listed motor control system that had it built in, but this supplemental over speed protection didn't have to be listed or even tested to any standard.

There is nothing that says an end user, or an OEM cannot require something in excess of what the codes require. It was very common until a few years ago for people to add a thermal overload on VFD supplied motors, even though they had built-in overload protection. It is still common to see VFD supplied motors have contactors on them for no special reason.

Another was an auctioneer speed rattling off of did I meet the following industry specific and CE standard numbers. This was followed by a number of interpretations and explanations of same, and a refusal to let me see the written words.

If the machine is going to end up in the US, CE is completely meaningless.

Also, there is no such thing as CE standard numbers. Just don't exist.

While NRTL listed equipment does not fall under NFPA 79, this and other standards are used as a basis for getting certified/listed.

That is just not so. UL has its own standards for what constitutes a safe product. In some cases either the codes have been adjusted to account for idiosyncrasies in how UL sees things, or vice versa, but the two are totally separate items. The NEC deals almost entirely with electrical installation. NFPA79 deals almost entirely with design issues surrounding machine controls. Neither deals with design of electrical components, except in a few minor ways

Most of my regulatory headaches are calling BS on made up rules. This is why I wish NFPA 79 and other standards would spell it out in greater detail. I like to get an authoritative answer to bring back to the table, even to the inane questions that I pass on. It also helps to have a second opinion.

The codes in question will not tell you how to design a specific machine, only the minimum standard required of all such machines.

For instance, there are certain requirements for e-stop pushbuttons in NFPA79. Yellow nameplate, etc. But nowhere does it tell you how many, or where they are to be placed. Or that any are even required at all. Just the requirements for them if you decide your machine needs one (or more).

I want machinery that is safe and practical and simple to deal with.

Matt

Don't we all. But complex machinery is generally not all that simple by its very nature.

 

[megloff11x]

Bob

Thanks. After pondering over the weekend, my issue isn't with NFPA 79, but rather others' more detailed interpretations or desires.

I have to deal with domestic and international, and try to make the design as common as possible. I use a lot of cables because both provide an "exception" for wire color codes if you use a multiconductor cable. I hunt for multiply listed multi-voltage switching supply powered instruments. I try to limit the differences. For some equipment, this was several years ago, some domestic customers would forego UL if they saw a CE stamp.

The waste is how much time it takes up for what is mostly window dressing and not safety or functionality.

I was hoping for a better way.

Matt

 

[petersonra]

Bob

Thanks. After pondering over the weekend, my issue isn't with NFPA 79, but rather others' more detailed interpretations or desires.

I have to deal with domestic and international, and try to make the design as common as possible. I use a lot of cables because both provide an "exception" for wire color codes if you use a multiconductor cable. I hunt for multiply listed multi-voltage switching supply powered instruments. I try to limit the differences. For some equipment, this was several years ago, some domestic customers would forego UL if they saw a CE stamp.

The waste is how much time it takes up for what is mostly window dressing and not safety or functionality.

I was hoping for a better way.

Matt

If customers in the US are accepting a CE declaration in lieu of a UL listing they are probably seriously misinformed. Besides, other than motors, there are darn few pieces of electrical gear sold in the US that are not UL listed these days. The legal liability issues are just too big.

Customers want what they want, and if you want them to buy from you, you will have to give them what they want to buy.

 

[megloff11x]

This was actually over a decade ago when CE was going from optional to required in Europe and they were small instruments, not motors or machines. The CE tests were very good and covered all hazards, shorts, fire, amount of fuel inside, etc.

I worked in industries that had its own set of rigorous industry specific standards for equipment and you needed their stamp. They didn't care about the others.

I also had customers who did their own inspection to their own standards as well. My favorite was being required to repaint certain components to match the color and shade used by the vendor of that component previously so as not to disrupt the harmony of their chi.

Bottom line, none of this stuff was going to distributors or box stores.

My issue with regulatory is that the more I deal with it, the more I get the impression that they're making this up as they go along with no real justification. Again, this is not with NEC, UL, or CE, but other industry/company specific and occasionally the CE consulting firms. It makes you start approaching it as a Lawyer, which is bad too.

Matt