CSST bond. They say consult qualified electrician. Well I don't feel qualified....

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Plumber at this house I'm doing says the gas will be Csst the original gas black pipe and meter that fed the house is still there and will be used.

I've never bonded to gas service let alone Csst.

Googling I see people go to the black pipe service.. Others go to the compression connector of the Csst.

This post mentioned something about jumping black pipe and Csst ( I think)

https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=169232&highlight=Csst+bonding


Reading says a minimum # 6. The water meter is right there. I should be able to go from that right?

If I can't add a clamp to the water pipe could I make the #4 long enough to go unspliced from the panel thru the water to the gas ? Or would a separate 6 have to go back to the inter system bond or panel ground bar?

If I need to bond the black pipe, Is the clamp special for black pipe?

Pretty sure the Csst clamps are special. If I need to bond the Csst connector, Are those clamps elec supply house stock or plumbing ?


Thanks for the help.

I want to be Csst qualified. :- )
 

kenman215

Senior Member
Location
albany, ny
Plumber at this house I'm doing says the gas will be Csst the original gas black pipe and meter that fed the house is still there and will be used.

I've never bonded to gas service let alone Csst.

Googling I see people go to the black pipe service.. Others go to the compression connector of the Csst.

This post mentioned something about jumping black pipe and Csst ( I think)

https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=169232&highlight=Csst+bonding


Reading says a minimum # 6. The water meter is right there. I should be able to go from that right?

If I can't add a clamp to the water pipe could I make the #4 long enough to go unspliced from the panel thru the water to the gas ? Or would a separate 6 have to go back to the inter system bond or panel ground bar?

If I need to bond the black pipe, Is the clamp special for black pipe?

Pretty sure the Csst clamps are special. If I need to bond the Csst connector, Are those clamps elec supply house stock or plumbing ?


Thanks for the help.

I want to be Csst qualified. :- )
The CSST clamps are special, I believe, and more expensive. Best bet is to have the HVAC guys, throw a small nipple in and use a standard grounding clamp. I had an 80 unit apartment building, each unit with an individual gas meter. We bought 80- 3" black pipe nipples and couplings and gave them to the HVAC guys to install. Still cheaper than the CSST clamps...
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Here is some info that may help. We usually hit the black iron at the load side of the gas meter

Bonding/grounding clamps shall be installed in accordance with its listing per UL 467 and shall makemetal-to-metal contact with a rigid pipe component or CSST fitting. This direct-bond is in addition to any otherbonding requirements as specified by local codes for ground fault protection.The 2015 edition of the National Fuel Gas Code, International Fuel Gas Code, and Uniform Plumbing Code limits thelength of the bonding conductor to 75-ft. When there are no local code requirements for the length of thisconductor refer to the manufactures instructions or the NEC / CEC for guidance regarding the permissible length ofthe bonding conductor.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Okay. Thank you. I think I got it.

Install black pipe on load side of gas meter. Regular clamp. Straight back to panel ground and not to other gec's

If no black pipe. Special clamp. Bond straight back to panel.

One moe question

If it is a manifold with several csst? If fed load side of meter with black pipe like above , and all scct trunks come out of T's in black pipe. just one time to the black pipe is fine ?

If manifold and load side of gas meter is csst? Does load side of meter and all trunks in manifold get bonded ?

Thank you
 

kenman215

Senior Member
Location
albany, ny
Okay. Thank you. I think I got it.

Install black pipe on load side of gas meter. Regular clamp. Straight back to panel ground and not to other gec's

If no black pipe. Special clamp. Bond straight back to panel.

One moe question

If it is a manifold with several csst? If fed load side of meter with black pipe like above , and all scct trunks come out of T's in black pipe. just one time to the black pipe is fine ?

If manifold and load side of gas meter is csst? Does load side of meter and all trunks in manifold get bonded ?

Thank you
As long as you have continuity, from each CSST through the manifold, one bond should be fine. But don't assume, test it. I've seen it where there is a gasket at the manifold attachment point for each line. Ring it through before you cut the wire. One other piece of advice: if you're doing a whole bunch of clamps, don't get a standard pipe clamp where you have to pass the wire through a hole with set screw. Get the kind that you can just lay the wire in. It'll save you a ton of time...
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Just my opinion but only NEC requirement is to bond gas piping where it is likely to be energized, and the EGC supplying such equipment is sufficient to meet that requirement.

The fact that this CSST has it's own bonding issues to me means that those that install it need to understand it and install accordingly. If that means they need an electrician to come and install an intersystem bonding termination where one doesn't exist or something of that nature so they have a place to connect to the electrical system- I'm fine with that, that is what intersystem bonding terminal is for, but don't ask me to help with installation of your product otherwise - and bonding it is part of it's installation procedure.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
The NEC has required bonding to the gas piping per 250.104(B) for a while. The bonding of CSST is per manufacture instructions which come with the product or now recently per the ICC fuel gas code. I do not know of any section of the NEC requiring the bonding conductor size to be greater than the EGC of the OCPD of the branch circuit. You can find manuals for the products fairly easy in the internet. The required bonding of CSST has been a directive of another trade.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Just my opinion but only NEC requirement is to bond gas piping where it is likely to be energized, and the EGC supplying such equipment is sufficient to meet that requirement.

The fact that this CSST has it's own bonding issues to me means that those that install it need to understand it and install accordingly. If that means they need an electrician to come and install an intersystem bonding termination where one doesn't exist or something of that nature so they have a place to connect to the electrical system- I'm fine with that, that is what intersystem bonding terminal is for, but don't ask me to help with installation of your product otherwise - and bonding it is part of it's installation procedure.
Nice.


Who ever bonds it ... In my earlier post I mentioned the existing gas service line side was black pipe. It may or may not be. I'm not sure. Might be plastic. Ether way it will need to be relocated as the meter will be under a future porch
Would the line side iof that meter be utity co responsibility or the contractor ( me or the guy installing the csst )

Would it get jumped like a water meter.
I think the utity side is all plastic and they run a wire with it so they can locate it. If this is the case why would it need bonding or why would the csst in the building need bonding. The service is plastic ?

If/when bonding is required does it get bonded outside of the building. Or is inside the building permited. In reading I see mention of bringing it to the inter system bond would it be better off there or in the panel. At the inter system outdoor bar, seams like it would be too easy for someone to disconnect. Although if the bond needs to be on the exterior for the gas pipe I guess someone could disconnect it there too ???

Thank you for the replies and the link

I like that one post that they are making rid of it.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
So I'm curious if a dielectric union installed on csst fed appliance (as there is one on the utility meter itself) would solve energized via appliance fault?
TTBOMK, a dielectric union as mentioned does not solve any electrical problem on the "house" side.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
[QUOTE=ritelec;1707353

I think the utity side is all plastic and they run a wire with it so they can locate it. If this is the case why would it need bonding or why would the csst in the building need bonding. The service is plastic ?


voltage/current induce by lighting strikes take all paths to ground thru conductive materials. The gas piping is bonded thru the branch circuit supplying an appliance -- CSST is a weak link in any path. apparently, a typical 20 amp EGC(12#) is not large enough to properly direct the lighting strike voltage/current to earth without damaging the CSST so a larger bonding conductor is used to safely direct the flow to earth with out CSST damage.
 

takelly

Member
Location
South dakota
The definition of “intersystem bonding termination” was revised by inserting the word “intersystem” in front of the words “bonding conductors”. The definition now reads:

A device that provides a means for connecting intersystem bonding conductors for communications systems to the grounding electrode system.

The way the term was defined in previous Codes did not make it clear that only bonding conductors from communications systems were to be connected to the intersystem bonding termination. This change makes it clear that only intersystem bonding conductors are to be landed on an intersystem bonding termination.

Although the intersystem bonding termination bar was not designed for general bonding and grounding purposes, because it was easily accessible, some individuals were using the intersystem bonding termination bar to bond gas piping and other metal pipes to the electrical system.

This change makes it clear that the intersystem bonding termination is only to be used to bond intersystem bonding conductors for systems such as data, voice, cable, and satellite systems.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
ritelec;1707353 I think the utity side is all plastic and they run a wire with it so they can locate it. If this is the case why would it need bonding or why would the csst in the building need bonding. The service is plastic ? voltage/current induce by lighting strikes take all paths to ground thru conductive materials. The gas piping is bonded thru the branch circuit supplying an appliance -- CSST is a weak link in any path. apparently said:
Correct, but why should it be the EC's responsibility to make a product installed by the MC/HVAC contractor safer? They need to learn how to properly install it themselves or go back to products they understand how to install. - Just my $.02 worth of opinion. Why do I need to bond this gas line and take on any liability for it when I am not a gas piping installer? I will provide intersystem bonding point and they can connect to it - that is what it is for, a place for other then electricians to reference the electrical system grounding.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
Correct, but why should it be the EC's responsibility to make a product installed by the MC/HVAC contractor safer? They need to learn how to properly install it themselves or go back to products they understand how to install. - Just my $.02 worth of opinion. Why do I need to bond this gas line and take on any liability for it when I am not a gas piping installer? I will provide intersystem bonding point and they can connect to it - that is what it is for, a place for other then electricians to reference the electrical system grounding.
It is not the EC's responsibility to follow codes they are not licesned for -- I inspect all trades so it has always been in the conversation during rough ins -- I would prefer the EC to mkae the connections due to experience only -- I find it odd for any trade to install a product that has potential to cause serious damage.
 
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