CSST (cerebral spinal synaptic tremors)…

Merry Christmas

darkenergy

Member
Location
Weirton WV 26062
Occupation
semi-retired electrician
… Probably not proper, but my way of conveying a headache that is radiating to all parts of my body. Concerning CSST.

Scenario: Grounding Electrode; copper water line entering building, 10 foot buried, etc., have to use it. Grounding electrode conductor (GEC). #4 copper (0000 aluminum service conductor size) One continuous piece, (CAD weld™ and irreversible mechanical crimps aside) from neutral bus to water pipe. While I'm on this topic, (waterline within 5 feet of where it enters the building), it is also my understanding (may be a poor choice of words!) That if you hit the 'street side' of the meter, you are allowed to install additional approved waterline clamps and 'jumper' back around the meter to the customer side. If you land on the customer side the same scenario is a no go, and that is where (at lest one example) the irreversible mechanical crimp/Cadweld™ requirement kicks in? T/F? just throwing this out there, but personally, I always tried to get as close to where it comes through the wall as possible. Never had one actually break while I was sanding the pipe clean at the connection point, but I have buddies who have. it became the scariest part of the job, since the local utilities now do the disconnect/reconnects. As an additional side note, for a long time I have been putting Anti-ox on the pipe/clamp face, and a healthy glob on the end of the wire I stick into the terminal on the clamp. Not a requirement, but I have been back to jobs done many years ago where everything was completely encrusted, figured it couldn't hurt going forward.

Yes, there is a green screw in it (neutral bar) . Why does the screw have to be green? To the best of my abilities to determine, it is because that is the color the inspector looks for/easy to find. Any further clarification would be greatly appreciated… But I digress.

On second thought while I'm on the topic, it is my understanding if you land the grounding electrode conductor to the equipment ground bus (mounted directly to the shell) you must use a wire type jumper 'appropriately sized' between the neutral and the equipment grounding bar, in this case #4 copper. It is also my understanding that you can land ANY branch circuit equipment ground to this bar (directly mounted to the shell), it is 'listed and approved ' for that application. it is only when a grounding electrode conductor is put there that the wire type jumper requirement kicks in . T/F On That Would Be Appreciated As Well.

'Approved/listed' terminations, connectors, etc. everywhere. GEC passes through one of said devices mounted on natural gas line. 110.12 always applies. I would posit that any ground/bond required could be on the single (GEC) conductor if the physical arrangements of said devices/equipment allow, the grounding electrode conductor being sized appropriately of course. T/F ON THAT AS WELL IF YOU WOULD PLEASE!

Legit or not? That is the question.

From the AGA (American gas Association)

A 2017 (revision 9-06-17) says "a direct bond consists of a listed grounding clamp and separate conductor run from the gas piping to the grounding electrode system"

The 2021 NFPA 54; 7.12; ELECTRICAL BONDING AND GROUNDING THROUGH 7.13; ELECTRICAL CIRCUITS (inclusive) encompasses less than half of page, column wise in aggregate. The little asterisks refer you to appendix A.

to the best of my abilities to read, nothing anywhere mentioned above (in the 2021 NFGC) specifically states 'separate conductor' and only refers you to NFPA 70 (National electric code 2017 in my jurisdiction )

EGC (equipment ground conductor) provisions; 250.122 relating to branch circuits serving gas utilization devices notwithstanding, this is only in reference to the yellow CSST. As far as I can tell. I'm sure the black is always professionally installed.

I could go on and on for pages… Because I use Dragon dictate software, speech to text. With that being said, I try to proofread but sometimes not so well so I apologize for any nonsensical words/Arrangement/lack of clarity. I have looked high and low intermittently for years (I'm sometimes prone to slight exaggeration) but quite honestly/earnestly for the last week or so and can find no definitive answers.

I welcome your criticism/critique/opinions, all will be appreciated!

Thank you all for your time if you would care to give any guidance/corrections/advice.

I figured by now there would be something definitive in at least the National fuel gas code if not the national electric code. Maybe if all the people involved were in the same organization…? Free coffee and doughnuts on/in a prepaid trip to Hawaii may develop a consensus?

Thank you again, Willy
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
You have a lot going on there and I am not sure I get it all. The conductor from the service to the water pipe, within 5' as you stated, is continuous so anything after that is a bonding jumper and does not have to be cad weld at all.

There should be a jumper installed if the water meter is installed between the underground line and the house piping.

There is usually no need to bong the gas line unless there is csst in the line, then you need to run that back to the gec somewhere.

Do not bond the gas line on the line side of the gas meter...

That's all I have
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
The is no requirement to connect the GEC the water pipe electrode on the street side of the meter. It is required to be connected within 5', even if that is after the water meter and a jumper is required around the water meter regardless of which side the GEC is connected to.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
The is no requirement to connect the GEC the water pipe electrode on the street side of the meter. It is required to be connected within 5', even if that is after the water meter and a jumper is required around the water meter regardless of which side the GEC is connected to.
I thought he had the meter in a crawl space in which case I do believe you need to connect to the street side of the water meter and have a jumper. I was told there is a dielectric fitting in the meter. Is that not the case?
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I thought he had the meter in a crawl space in which case I do believe you need to connect to the street side of the water meter and have a jumper. I was told there is a dielectric fitting in the meter. Is that not the case?
I was referring to the connection to the street side of the water main. That language was removed from in the 1971 NEC.
 

darkenergy

Member
Location
Weirton WV 26062
Occupation
semi-retired electrician
Thank you for your input gentleman, even I was confused when I read it! It actually took me probably two hours to compose that missive if I was to guess. I appreciate your guidance, references etc.

First things first:
250.64 grounding electrode conductor installation (C) continuous.

I'll try to keep this as brief as possible and may paraphrase.

From the panel to the street side is the only 'continuous' that I can justify in my head. (Did I mention headaches?) Typically in my experience, the grounding electrode conductor (GEC) followed the water line the last few feet down the wall, through the water line clamp on the customer side, a semi circle 'loop' of slack is formed to facilitate meter removal, and continues to the first or last depending on routing, etc., water line clamp. It is my understanding that you can install a jumper (one additional water line clamp required) 'back' to the customer side of the meter with no irreversible mechanical crimp/Cadweld™ required, if you should happen to somehow land on the street side 'first' contingent upon installation layout, etc., as I believe this arrangement would qualify/constitute a bonding jumper. not that that would make any sense from a variety of perspectives upon installation.

It is further my understanding that if you would terminate on the customer side of the meter, a separate bonding jumper would not qualify as continuous...UNLESS you employ said irreversible mechanical crimp/Cadweld.

I truly do appreciate all inputs, part of my intent is to hopefully help others… Have been reading here intermittently for years, truly a great service provided by Mike Holt et al, (I believe that that is Latin for 'and others' when I'm trying to sound like I know what I'm talking about)… For free. God bless them.

I have posted a few of times, basically related to the same topic. Even though this is 'anonymous' no one wishes to expose themselves to contempt and ridicule. I am past that so respond as you will.

Hopefully we can get into the yellow CSST requirements eventually.

You are definitely correct Mr. Alwon, thank you!

I would appreciate your continued responses as we work through this together.

Willy
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
From the panel to the street side is the only 'continuous' that I can justify in my head. (Did I mention headaches?) Typically in my experience, the grounding electrode conductor (GEC) followed the water line the last few feet down the wall, through the water line clamp on the customer side, a semi circle 'loop' of slack is formed to facilitate meter removal, and continues to the first or last depending on routing, etc., water line clamp. It is my understanding that you can install a jumper (one additional water line clamp required) 'back' to the customer side of the meter with no irreversible mechanical crimp/Cadweld™ required, if you should happen to somehow land on the street side 'first' contingent upon installation layout, etc., as I believe this arrangement would qualify/constitute a bonding jumper. not that that would make any sense from a variety of perspectives upon installation.

It is further my understanding that if you would terminate on the customer side of the meter, a separate bonding jumper would not qualify as continuous...UNLESS you employ said irreversible mechanical crimp/Cadweld.
The GEC is the conductor that goes from the neutral in the service disconnect to the electrode, that conductor must be continuous or irreversibly spliced. Any other conductor used as a jumper around the water meter is a bonding jumper and that just gets connected with two water pipe clamps. You can also run through the first clamp to the second with an unbroken conductor but that it not required.
 

darkenergy

Member
Location
Weirton WV 26062
Occupation
semi-retired electrician
So I somehow missed this previously....or don't remember reading...still inconclusive to some extent.

Right way to ground around a water meter?​


The grounding electrode is the pipe in the ground. item (4) in 250.64 (C) could be discussed I suppose (2017 NEC).... But I don't feel it is germane to the discussion at this point. I have seen the water line clamps installed on the 'tail pieces' of the meter which I would consider improper, as sometimes one tailpiece or another may need to be replaced or just replaced as a matter of good workmanship when replacing a meter. if there is any 'juice' on the grounding electrode conductor when you disconnect it, your nickname henceforth will most likely be Mr. Resistor (failing/faulty neutral connection, back feed from the neighborhood, etc.)

Part of your reply… " that conductor must be continuous or irreversibly spliced."… Is nearly verbatim to (C) 'shall be installed in one continuous length without a splice or joint.'

I also agree with your statement… "You can also run through the first clamp to the second with an unbroken conductor but that it not required."… Except for the part where it says "that is not required" , assuming (you know what they say about assumptions) that we would be approaching the meter from the customer side, jumping around it to the supply (Street) side, my idea of continuous.

If in fact you are referring to hitting the 'Street' side first, then I would agree completely with your statement, to the extent that you would then have to put a 'bonding jumper' from the street side to the customer side around the meter for required bonding purposes. At which point you would need two more waterline clamps and a short bonding jumper. ( Of course, if I've been reading the code correctly over the years, the 'bond' could be 'anywhere' on the waterline system. Typically I would use the cold, but I don't think/can't remember that it is or ever was a code requirement. Similarly, I always jump the hot water tank as close as possible, primarily for easy observation for any inspector. Lots of times I even used a 3rd water line clamp to hit the gas line if it was a gas hot water tank. (As you will recall, it seems so long ago😂! , My original question was about CSST bonding)… Increasing prevalence of dielectric unions at the tank and plastic faucets galore!

Or.....
I have never used Cadweld™ in a residential setting, but quite a few 'irreversible' mechanical crimps. One less water line clamp and one less spot to sand.

I in no way wish to appear combative for lack of a better word, contrary might be better but still sounds negative. Definitely not my intent. The link I furnished from the site, (if I did it right?) seems to me most of the respondents stressed 'street side'. If I was still doing the work, one continuous piece means one continuous piece. a bonding jumper from the customer side to the electrode side (Street) doesn't meet the requirement in my minds' eye, Unless it was 'irreversibly' crimped.

I hope this is clear… Probably as mud?, LOL I won't be able to participate until Sunday afternoon if anyone would care to venture an opinion, much appreciated.

I do want to move on to CSST (yellow) bonding if I could. My main question there was whether or not it was code compliant/code violation to 'pick up' (bond) the gas line via yet another water line clamp on a single run of the grounding electrode conductor (GEC) from the panel to the waterline electrode.

Thanks for bearing with me, and any and all advice, opinion, code reference will be greatly appreciated!
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
No problem we're here to have a discussion. :cool:
Looking back I will maintain that my previous statements are correct. I've summarized a list, take a look and see if you feel that there are any code sections that I've gotten incorrect.

Here's summary:
1) The GEC goes from the neutral to the water pipe electrode, is terminated with a pipe clamp, and the GEC is required to be continuous unless irreversibly spliced.
2) The GEC can land on any portion of the water pipe electrode that is within 5' of the entry of the water pipe electrode into the structure. (Street side of the water main requirement was removed in the 1971 NEC).
3) A water meter requires a bonding jumper around it which can be a separate bonding conductor with two ground clamps.
4) Regardless of where the water meter is in relation to the connection of the GEC to the water pipe there is no requirement to pass the GEC through the first clamp to the second when installing a bonding jumper around the meter.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I agree with the above but if the meter were right there I would probably leave the gec long enough to reach the other side to avoid an extra clamp. But Infinity is correct it is not required to be continuous because it is a bonding jumper not a gec at that point.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I agree with the above but if the meter were right there I would probably leave the gec long enough to reach the other side to avoid an extra clamp. But Infinity is correct it is not required to be continuous because it is a bonding jumper not a gec at that point.
I agree also, why waste a few bucks on an extra clamp. The one time I used separate clamps is when the GEC would not pass through the hole in the clamp and I didn't want to strip off 4' of insulation.
 

darkenergy

Member
Location
Weirton WV 26062
Occupation
semi-retired electrician
Clearly, my writing style/skills need some polishing.

(1) In reference to:' the bond could be 'anywhere' on the waterline system.' would only be correct if the incoming supply line from outside the building was not metal.
(2) 'Increasing prevalence of dielectric unions at the tank and plastic faucets galore!' was in reference/my justification/Code compliance for the bonding jumper between the hot and cold at the domestic hot water tank, although most 'modern' plumbing is PEX or CPVC especially if it's a 'low bidder' job from what I have seen. Shame actually, no bacteriostatic properties in either.

On to the meat of the matter, 250.64 (C) Continuous. Grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be installed in one continuous length without a splice or JOINT.

"except as provided in…"
250.30 (A) (5)… N/A… Grounding electrode conductor, single separately drive system
250.30 (A) (6)… N/A… Grounding electrode conductor, multiple separately drive systems
250.30 (B) (1)… N/A… Supplied by a feeder or Branch circuit
250.68 (C)… MAYBE… grounding electrode conductor connections. Grounding electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted to be connected at the following locations and used to EXTEND the connection to an electrode(s):
Grounding electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted to be connected at the following locations and used to EXTEND the connection to an electrode(s):
(1) interior metal water piping that is electrically continuous with a metal underground water pipe electrode and is located not more than 1.5 2 m (5 feet) from the point of entrance to the building shall be permitted to extend the connection to an electrode(s). Interior metal water piping located more than 5 ft. shall not…

2017 NEC...The cows have come home.

Full disclosure: the real world is the real world. (besides the fact that I am obviously a native West Virginian)

Generally speaking, the vast majority of the time, it is in my opinion much easier, and definitely quicker, (TIME IS MONEY) just to have two waterline clamps and one piece of wire, regardless of the routing. Because of finished ceilings, I have also went outside from the panel, through the ground rods, (most notably one time 7/8ths of the perimeter because of concrete, etc.) punched through the wall from the access panel out, (no measuring/potential for error; some danger of Spaulding the exterior depending on surface) and installed one piece, #4 Cu; for 0000 aluminum service entrance. I will not even mention the struggle to comprehend that #6 is all that is required/minimum for ground rods, no matter what size of the service, 250.53 (E) supplemental electrode bond and connection size. I thought that it meant you could only use that if that was the 'sole' connection. IF there was a water line also… I didn't understand that if it was just from the ground rods to the panel, or to a common point ground for instance, 250.53 (E) did apply. Keeping in mind that the NEC is the absolute MINIMUM. The above-mentioned scenario would require #4 or whatever 250.66 requires based on the largest ungrounded service entrance conductor contingent upon the job.

While reluctant to mention this, (see real-world above) I have also clamped onto the water line ' as close as possible without major destruction' and then just 'bonding jumpered' around the meter. Towards this end, I purchased my first set of fish rods when I could ill afford it, and also learned some 'minimally intrusive' drywall/plastering tricks from real pros.

'Acceptable' distances did increase over time, with age LOL

I have immensely enjoyed this thread, and I would hope to have at least provided a chuckle or two, and hopefully some fond remembrances of jobs gone by, 110.12 reigns supreme! Mostly.

I will now start a separate thread based on YELLOW CSST my initial and primary question.

Thank you very much for your insights and opinions.
 
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