Current thru conduit

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gar

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Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
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EE
140521-2358 EDT

Performed some quick magnetic field measurements tonight.

The sensor is about 1.25" in diameter and consists of many thousands of turns in a circular coil. This is shunted with a 0.47 ufd capacitor to reduce high frequency noise. Meter resolution is 10 micro-volts. Sensor scaling at 60 Hz is 20 mV/gauss.

My meter base is outside with a rigid conduit leading into the earth containing the input hots and neutral. There is also rigid conduit from the meter base to the main panel.

I measured a considerably greater magnetic field adjacent to the conduit from meter to main panel, than adjacent to the conduit going into the ground. This provides evidence that a considerable amount of the neutral current flows thru the conduit from the meter to the main panel.

.
 
140521-2358 EDT

Performed some quick magnetic field measurements tonight.

The sensor is about 1.25" in diameter and consists of many thousands of turns in a circular coil. This is shunted with a 0.47 ufd capacitor to reduce high frequency noise. Meter resolution is 10 micro-volts. Sensor scaling at 60 Hz is 20 mV/gauss.

My meter base is outside with a rigid conduit leading into the earth containing the input hots and neutral. There is also rigid conduit from the meter base to the main panel.

I measured a considerably greater magnetic field adjacent to the conduit from meter to main panel, than adjacent to the conduit going into the ground. This provides evidence that a considerable amount of the neutral current flows thru the conduit from the meter to the main panel.

.

There is no GEC in the RMC?
 
The neutral is bonded to the meter socket enclosure and the panel enclosure.

That being the case a lot of the neutral current will flow on the conduit between the meter and panel.

While it may not be desirable it is normal and unavoidable with metal conduit.
 
140521-2358 EDT

Performed some quick magnetic field measurements tonight.

The sensor is about 1.25" in diameter and consists of many thousands of turns in a circular coil. This is shunted with a 0.47 ufd capacitor to reduce high frequency noise. Meter resolution is 10 micro-volts. Sensor scaling at 60 Hz is 20 mV/gauss.

My meter base is outside with a rigid conduit leading into the earth containing the input hots and neutral. There is also rigid conduit from the meter base to the main panel.

I measured a considerably greater magnetic field adjacent to the conduit from meter to main panel, than adjacent to the conduit going into the ground. This provides evidence that a considerable amount of the neutral current flows thru the conduit from the meter to the main panel.

.
This shows you have a good bond at both ends of the conduit. Possibly a reduced or compromised neutral.
How much is considerable? More or less than "a lot"?
 
This shows you have a good bond at both ends of the conduit. Possibly a reduced or compromised neutral.
How much is considerable? More or less than "a lot"?

Why possibly reduced or compromised? If you put the conduit in parallel with the neutral between the meter base and panel, neutral current will flow through it even if you paralleled two 500 MCMs as a neutral for a 100A service...
 
Define "considerable".

The only thing abnormal about this install would be if he had a compromised neutral connection.

Gar didn't say it was a considerable amount of current, he stated that there was "a considerably greater magnetic field" in the section between the panel and meter base than on the section from the meter base into the ground. That makes perfect sense to me since between the panel and meter, the conduit and neutral are the only two conductors carrying neutral current and they're both low resistance, whereas between the meter base and POCO, the earth is a higher resistance conductor so that section of conduit would be shunting less current back to the transformer.
 
Gar didn't say it was a considerable amount of current, he stated that there was "a considerably greater magnetic field" in the section between the panel and meter base than on the section from the meter base into the ground. That makes perfect sense to me since between the panel and meter, the conduit and neutral are the only two conductors carrying neutral current and they're both low resistance, whereas between the meter base and POCO, the earth is a higher resistance conductor so that section of conduit would be shunting less current back to the transformer.

My mistake, I must have misread the title.
 
Performed some quick magnetic field measurements tonight.

My meter base is outside with a rigid conduit leading into the earth containing the input hots and neutral. There is also rigid conduit from the meter base to the main panel.

I measured a considerably greater magnetic field adjacent to the conduit from meter to main panel, than adjacent to the conduit going into the ground. This provides evidence that a considerable amount of the neutral current flows thru the conduit from the meter to the main panel.

The neutral is bonded to the meter socket enclosure and the panel enclosure.

That being the case a lot of the neutral current will flow on the conduit between the meter and panel.

This shows you have a good bond at both ends of the conduit.

Take your magnetic field probe and measure the field around the Grounding Electrode Conductor. Don asks where the GEC is. I submit that the presence of the "net magnetic field" on the RMC / service entrance conductors between the Service Disconnect and the PoCo Meter Socket means that the Main Bonding Jumper and connection of the GEC occur in Gar's (as he calls it) "main panel".

Gar, the sum of the currents at the node that is the Main Bonding Jumper will be Zero. Your magnetic field measurement is demonstrating that only part of the L1 and L2 unbalance current is present in the electrical path between the meter and the main panel. The remainder of the unbalance current will be traveling paths back to the PoCo supply transformer along the GEC to the Grounding Electrode System, and any other "incidental" parallel paths that may, or may not, exist.
 
140522-1026 EDT

I did not say too much in my original post because I wanted to see the responses.

Yesterday I decided to make some random magnetic field measurements around the house and yard. This was with a magnetic sensor I bought about 50 years ago and it is simply a many turn coil inside of a non-magnetic, but metalic enclosure, possibly brass. The physical size of the electrostatic shielding tube is 1.125" x 2". The center of the coil is about 3/4" from the non-cord end. DC resistance is 570 ohms. I don't know the wire size and number of turns in this sensor but there will be more than 1500 turns. This is based on a coil of somewhat similar size.

I don't have a current transformer large enough to fit over the conduit, but readings from such a probe should be close to 0 current. At the moment I won't describe why I can determine that there is current flow in the conduit, but a clamp-on current transformer would read near 0.

Answers to some of the questions.

In the conduit there are three 0000 copper wires, two hots and one neutral. The conduit is 2". In the meter base the neutral is bonded to the enclosure. In the main panel the neutral is bonded to the enclosure. Thus, the conduit and the neutral wire between the meter and the main panel are parallel current paths.

Grounding of the system occurrs only at few points. My water supply line (better than any ground rod), no ground rod (was not required), a power company ground rod at the pole where my service goes into the ground (this pole originally supported the transformer), a power company ground rod at the pole for the new location of the transformer, and any grounds in my neighbor's home. Our two homes and two street lights are the only loads on the transformer. It is a 50 kVA unit now. There is no power company primary side neutral or ground other than what is at the substation.

With a coil type or other magnetic field sensor one can only get relative estimates of current in an adjacent conductor. In specific cases this can be calibrated in amperes, but just placing the magnetic sensor near a current conductor does not provide a measurement in amperes. In a coil type sensor the coil output voltage for a given magnetic field intensity is proportional to frequency. In a Hall type sensor the output voltage is frequency independent until higher frequencies.
Comparing my old commerical magnetic sensor, and said 1500 turn coil, there was about 10 times the voltage output. This might imply 15000 turns in the commericial unit. Probably not that many. Geometry can be a factor.

My main panel is the service entrance. A few individual circuits are fed from it. But primarily it feds 5 subpanels in different areas. These are basement, pantry, laundry-sewing room, seond floor, and garage.

Some numerical measurements.

0.25 mV --- water line at floor entry point ( 1.25" copper tubing about 150 ft to street).
0.00 mv --- gas line (it is copper to the street),
2.00 mV --- neutral in main panel.
2.5 to 0.7 mV --- next to conduit, meter to main panel.
0.4 to 0.2 mV --- next to conduit, meter to soil.
0.15 mV --- next to wood cover over GEC at pole where transformer was originally located.
0.19 mv --- next to wood cover over GEC at present pole transformer location.

0.3 to 0.1 mV --- general background level in yard and under delta primary lines.

These measurements are meaningful in a relative sense, but not as absolute current measurements.

This thread is partly related to a thread where the originator placed a clamp-on current probe around a conduit and was getting a substantial current reading, and was initially assuming this was an indication of current flow in the conduit. It could possibly be, but most likely was a result of parallel neutral paths somewhere that diverted current from the neutral in said conduit. The magnetic field type of measurement I made here would not have clearly indicated whether or not there was current flow on the conduit. A voltage drop measurement along the conduit might be a better test.

.
 
Last edited:
140522-1026 EDT
...Our two homes and two street lights are the only loads on the transformer. It is a 50 kVA unit now. There is no power company primary side neutral or ground other than what is at the substation....
Gar, the transformer is connected line to line?

Around here the primary is mostly line to neutral and the primary and secondary neutrals are connected at each transformer. Often around here they use the secondary neutral as both a primary and secondary neutral.
 
140522-2006 EDT

don_resqcapt19:

Yes my transformer primary is line to line. We also have several residential customers in our neighborhood with open delta secondaries.

In my residential neighborhood, and older ones the primary is essentially a 3 wire delta. At the shop the primary is a 4 wire wye with 3 wires to our transformers, neutral and two lines, feeding two transformers that output a 4 wire open delta. In my daughter's residential neighborhood her transformer is single phase fed from a wye primary, only two wires to her pole, neutral and line, with the primary and secondary neutrals connected together.

.
 
Were there no current in the conduit, a sign of improper bonding, it is a risk factor for surge over voltages.
 
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