cut off

cut off

  • never

    Votes: 15 34.1%
  • household circuits

    Votes: 15 34.1%
  • 208v upto 200a

    Votes: 2 4.5%
  • 208v 200a +

    Votes: 3 6.8%
  • 480v

    Votes: 11 25.0%

  • Total voters
    44
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
A while back I had a client refuse to let me shut off any circuit unless I was 100% sure I had the right one. So, I had my schmuck rev up a skil-saw in his office while I found which phase the skil-saw was on, then which breaker of that phase it was on while I watched the ammeter numbers jump everytime he started it when I was on the circuit path. Effective yes, annoying - oh yeah.... :roll:
More than once, someone has suggested a flashing lamp as a load for your clamp-on to detect. You can work alone with it.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
We're not talking about which is "Safer". Talking about working it hot or dead. You can just as easily work something hot as you can dead.

No, you can not just as easily work on live equipment as you can dead equipment.

To say so is a bold faced lie.

What you personally choose to do at work is none of my concern or worry but I am not going to stay silent while you post absolute nonsense on this forum. :)
 

chevyx92

Senior Member
Location
VA BCH, VA
No, you can not just as easily work on live equipment as you can dead equipment.

Says who? I didn't know you scheduled outages to change a breaker. :roll:

To say so is a bold faced lie.

Really??? Why is it any harder to put two wires together when they are live?

What you personally choose to do at work is none of my concern or worry but I am not going to stay silent while you post absolute nonsense on this forum. :)

Typical response from you.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Says who? I didn't know you scheduled outages to change a breaker. :roll:

I have scheduled many outages to install breakers.

Sometime that may mean going in at night to shut down a panel to make the additions. But this has nothing to do with your statement that

You can just as easily work something hot as you can dead.

Really??? Why is it any harder to put two wires together when they are live?

Lets put aside the PPE issues, in certain specific circumstances I could just as easily connect two 12 AWGs together live as dead. But that is a very specific set of circumstances not mentioned by the OP or by you when you say


You can just as easily work something hot as you can dead.


Now lets try to put two 4/0s copper together with a split bolt in a tight enclosure.

Is that just as easy live or dead?

Lets try to pull out the GFCI outlet that was added to an old under sized box.

Is that just as easy live or dead?

Lets try to install the range receptacle into the two gang box in the wall

Is that just as easy live or dead?
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
I have to work services hot in this area and if using my bosses tools, that means using metal handled crimpers (I think they're about 40 years old) - no PPE supplied by boss. I've started buying my own stuff like gloves and liners, but it doesn't come cheap on an electrician's salary. A full kit is about a week's take-home pay when we have a full 40 hour week.

You employer is required by law (As of 11/15/07) to purchase your PPE that is required to do your job safely. That means insulated tools (If they require you to work hot, which they should not), rubber gloves (Including testing them every 6 months) and FR clothing.

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=20094&p_table=FEDERAL_REGISTER
 

chevyx92

Senior Member
Location
VA BCH, VA
I have scheduled many outages to install breakers.

Sometime that may mean going in at night to shut down a panel to make the additions. But this has nothing to do with your statement that

I knew you were going to say that. I don't schedule outages to change a 20A breaker.

But that is a very specific set of circumstances

Exactly. And your judgement will tell you what you can do and can't do. Thats what I've been saying. Just cause you have two hot wires or a 30A breaker needs changed out, doesnt mean you can't do it hot. You can. Just cause its hot doesn't mean I all of sudden lack ability. Now whether you decide that or not thats a whole other story.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I knew you were going to say that. I don't schedule outages to change a 20A breaker.

You should, we make money doing it that way, 4 hr min to go in at night. :grin:



Exactly. And your judgement will tell you what you can do and can't do. Thats what I've been saying.

No, that has not been what you have been saying, now your back peddling and putting limitations on your orginal posts. Now thats fine but be honest about it.

Just cause you have two hot wires or a 30A breaker needs changed out, doesnt mean you can't do it hot. You can. Just cause its hot doesn't mean I all of sudden lack ability.

And just 'cause you have the ability' does not mean it will go well. Stuff happens beyond your ability to control them.

Have I worked hot? Yes. Do I still sometimes break the rules? Yes. Have I ever said otherwise? No. Would it be better if I always follwed the rules? Yes.
 

chevyx92

Senior Member
Location
VA BCH, VA
No, that has not been what you have been saying, now your back peddling and putting limitations on your orginal posts. Now thats fine but be honest about it.

No I'm not. I know what I've been trying to get across. Now whether it has come out the way I was thinking I dont know. All I was saying is that people are quick to pass judgement on a guy who will work something hot and say "thats stupid" or "you're gonna get killed" etc... and the fact of the matter is that you can work something hot just as easy dead. Why couldn't you? Now exactly what that something is a judgement call to the electrician. You're not going to twist some wires together any different cause they're hot. Still gonna twist and handle them in the same manner either way. I always work on and treat unenergized wires as if they were energized anyway. Just my practice. So I dont do anything "different" cause its hot. I know what I'm working with.
 

paul

Senior Member
Location
Snohomish, WA
We have several clients where we work in their data centers. We are not allowed to remove a dead front without scheduling an after hours outage. Could I perform this during the day with my eyes shut several times over? Yes. Would one mistake that tripped a circuit or something similar get our company booted out of the facility? Yes.

We were hired because we take the proper precautions and get it done without incidence. The owner would rather pay the extra $$$ to get it done without anything happening. When some of their equipment goes down without proper shutdown, day or night, it costs them more than 5 years of my pay. Besides, as Bob mentioned, I'll take the 4hr minimum at DT rate of pay to come in for an hour to change out a breaker.

From a safety standpoint, I'm sure we have all worked hot. It's not the smartest thing to do. That mindset is changing, albeit slowly. New apprentices are trained not to touch it live. I was not. You wouldn't see a fitter work on a live steam pipe. Why should we be working on live wires? My family likes to see me come home after work, most of the time anyway. :D
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
... You're not going to twist some wires together any different cause they're hot. Still gonna twist and handle them in the same manner either way. ...
Maybe you don't do it any differently but most everyone else would!!! Most installers will touch he metal parts of their tools and the bare conductor when working with de-energized conductors, but won't do that when they are energized.
 

Power Tech

Senior Member
Truthfully - you are better off working hot - naked.... Than what 'could happen' with your "TRIPPER".... :roll:

What if the circuit does NOT TRIP? Other than a switch expolding in your hand, or the burns recieved from when the zip cord vaporizes - you could very well also burn the house down by igniting the wiring inside the walls... Do yourself a favor and chop the "tripper" into 1" peices.


Then do or get one or more of the following:
  1. A helper, schmuck, passer-by or helpfull client.
  2. A circuit tracer.
  3. A skil-saw
  4. A boom-box.
  5. A clue...
  6. A clamp-on ammeter
  7. A cell phone.
  8. A 1200W space heater.
  9. A plug, wire, door bell transformer, and bell. Or a 120V 6~10" fire bell.
  10. Some training on the results of short circuits.
  11. Some imagination about how to do this safer.
In the past when short of a circuit tracer which can lead to a false positive on which breaker it might be - I have used some imaginitive ways to find breakers that while they may seem hokey - they are 1000% safer than tripping the circuit reguardless of the tripping method.

A 120v fire bell - just plug it in, and shut off breakers until it goes off.... Much like the boom-box method but makes everyone love you enough to allow you to shut off the main in order not to work hot.... :D

Helper or any schmoe with a cell phone to tell you it is off will save you a few trips up and down stairs.

Fool proof method I find more reliable than the circuit tracer is to either have a helper operate a large motor or inductive load while I amp out the phase, and then every breaker on that phase.... A while back I had a client refuse to let me shut off any circuit unless I was 100% sure I had the right one. So, I had my schmuck rev up a skil-saw in his office while I found which phase the skil-saw was on, then which breaker of that phase it was on while I watched the ammeter numbers jump everytime he started it when I was on the circuit path. Effective yes, annoying - oh yeah.... :roll:

I use a screw in flasher and a 100W bulb.

Blue wire nuts and 2 screw connectors for OH service connections. Only in CA.
 

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
It is situational and not necessarily related to voltage.

There are occaisions where I wouldn't even take a cover off without deenergizing.
 

ohmhead

Senior Member
Location
ORLANDO FLA
Well my company has a rule if you work it hot your gone so we never work hot .
Now our service dept will work hot but they use it as a last option and have safety plan & pp to do it .

I dont do service work just construction .

Heres a story many years ago before safety was a issue as it is today i was working on a 14kv line in the military there was two of us inside a high voltage tunnel kinda aboard a aircraft carrier .

We were to splice a tee connection tapping into this takes two hours not your kits like they have today lots of different tapes and no spril cutters someone turned on the power and it was turned off and locked out . We were in a fire ball and smoke
i lost my hearing in my right ear not due to the electrical shock but the blast in the tunnel .


Power was turned back on due to a mistake made by misreading the tag .
And also a green officer in a hurry to impress others.

Dont work it hot and dont trust anyone ever .
 

flashlight

Senior Member
Location
NY, NY
Occupation
Electrician, semi-retired
It is situational and not necessarily related to voltage.

There are occaisions where I wouldn't even take a cover off without deenergizing.

I agree. This is a rocky topic, look at some of the posts.

Maybe people were considered more expendable when some of these systems were designed.

The POCOS think that, since their guys work hot, every electrician should. As someone posted, it is slowly changing, I think not fast enough maybe. I avoid it as much as I can, and when it's necessary, try to use the
safest technology in addition to procedures, pp, etc. (e.g. insulated piercing-type taps instead of bugs)

BTW, some guy in the old WTC had a "tripper" and managed to
bring down a large financial computer system with it.
 

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
I agree. This is a rocky topic, look at some of the posts.

Maybe people were considered more expendable when some of these systems were designed.

The POCOS think that, since their guys work hot, every electrician should. As someone posted, it is slowly changing, I think not fast enough maybe. I avoid it as much as I can, and when it's necessary, try to use the
safest technology in addition to procedures, pp, etc. (e.g. insulated piercing-type taps instead of bugs)

BTW, some guy in the old WTC had a "tripper" and managed to
bring down a large financial computer system with it.



No UPS???????
 

76nemo

Senior Member
Location
Ogdensburg, NY
Don't blah, blah me. I read the thread, I was replying to your post



People get wasted at a bar and drive home everyday with "no problems" too, does that make it right? No, it dosent, thats why there are laws against it, just like there are OSHA rules against working hot. So don't tell someone like iwire (Who knows what he is talking about) he is being condesending, and turn around and make a condescending remark like "blah, blah, blah".


Quite possibly the best response I have seen on this forum.
 

76nemo

Senior Member
Location
Ogdensburg, NY
Like 57, I have had to develop the art of annoying customers and still have them think I'm doing them a favor. I will work hot with effective and appropriate PPE, but only when absolutely necessary, when I cannot find another way to mitigate the risks.

I cannot vote in this poll because the categories are not ones I use to determine when I would work hot.

BTW, I used to do work live to "save my job," and then saw the stupidity of that.



"I cannot vote in this poll because the categories are not ones I use to determine when I would work hot. "...........



........exactly;)
 

76nemo

Senior Member
Location
Ogdensburg, NY
no, you can not just as easily work on live equipment as you can dead equipment.

To say so is a bold faced lie.

What you personally choose to do at work is none of my concern or worry but i am not going to stay silent while you post absolute nonsense on this forum. :)


;) ;) ;) ;)
 
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