Cutler CH Style Breakers - Known Problems

[StarCat]

Cutler Hammer Breakers Over-Heating

I just looked at a Cutler Hammer sub-panel that was installed about 2 years ago. The workmanship looks good. The panel is stuffed full of AFCI and GF/AFCI breakers. All of the breakers are hot, not warm, HOT. The ambient temp in the garage was 98F but the surface temperatures of all of the...

forums.mikeholt.com

Following this old thread, I was also told by a savvy Journeyman that the breaker tabs of this series will anneal on certain types of high inrush motor starting loads. This does appear to be the case, and what you will end up with is trips when all else on the circuit appears normal including MEG test. Bolt on breakers are preferred when possible for this type of load. IN this case 7.5 HP reciprocating air compressors are the load.
The other thing I have a question about is when replacing the last one I did, the new breaker was next to impossible to land on the bus, as in very, very, tight to stab in.
How do you like to address this matter? Please advise.

 

[kwired]

Hard to stab in is probably a good thing - probably means tighter connection to the bus. I'd also expect it to take more force to plug in a two or three pole unit than needed for a single pole unit. Used to install a lot of CH back in late 80's early 90's. Do remember it sometimes seemed hard to plug multipole breakers onto bus. Had little issues (call back type issues) with them back then. Not been around them that much recently to know if they have changed much. Mostly been plugging in new beakers in old panels when I do deal with them. Just not seeing many CH in this area on new installs.

 

[StarCat]

I do not care for this brand or type of panel. I got that one in by doing 1 slightly unorthodox but not destructive thing and going at it again, but have one more to do. These are 3 pole 30s.

 

[ramsy]

After reading the 2017 thread link, excess idle heat issues may come from integrated electronics on board the breakers, not from idle loads.

This emerging technology is not voluntarily recalled, since industry practice is to warranty firmware replacement, on as needed basis.

If OEM won't correct over the phone, and you document the listing violation in excess of 40°C, with temperature probe at the breaker surface, you can invite UL or listed NRTL to confirm the listing violation in the field.

If UL verifies your finding, it may force global product recalls, and make it harder for manufacturers to use the marketplace as their beta test site for emerging technologies.

In many cases the manufacture covers this without charging the customer, so you should give them the chance to fix it.

 

[hillbilly1]

Siemens had a lot of issues with heat produced in the electronics on the arc fault breakers. Panels would have virtually no load, but the cover would get almost too hot to touch. Bolt in three phase panel boards. They paid us to replace six 42 circuit panels when they recalled it.

 

[MD Automation]

The other thing I have a question about is when replacing the last one I did, the new breaker was next to impossible to land on the bus, as in very, very, tight to stab in.

Funny, but I had the exact same thing happen to me ~ 2 years ago. Put in a new 125A MLO Eaton CH sub-panel in a shop at our office and I had a crazy difficult time pushing a 3 pole breaker in (a brand new CH330). I let a few mechanical engineers at work here give it a try, because I thought I was absolutely going to break something - it was that difficult to push onto the fingers. Had a few (new and old) single and double pole breakers lying around and they went on just fine, but that 3 pole was something else to fit the first time in.

I agree it's great to have a tight fit between the busbar fingers and the breaker contact - but this was crazy. We stared at things for a long time (like dumb engineers will) trying to figure out if there was some kind of reject feature we were not understanding. All the while, in the back of your brain you know the solution is to "get a bigger hammer"

All of our shops have Eaton CH panels, so I am familiar with them and had not run into this problem before.

In the end I suspect that I likely did exactly what you did to get them on. I had (4) 3 pole 30s to fit in the top spots.

 

[norcal]

Many years ago installed a 100A meter main C-H panel that was manufactured in Costa Rica, & it was a lot harder to plug the breakers in compared the subpanel I installed in the house, about 19 years ago that rental caught fire (drugs or something cooking in the kitchen), & that service is still going. Eaton did do some value engineering on the buss of those panels, making them a 1 piece assembly over the prev. method of bolting the buss stabs to the vertical buss, I wonder how much of that is causing the problems?

 

[StarCat]

Funny, but I had the exact same thing happen to me ~ 2 years ago. Put in a new 125A MLO Eaton CH sub-panel in a shop at our office and I had a crazy difficult time pushing a 3 pole breaker in (a brand new CH330). I let a few mechanical engineers at work here give it a try, because I thought I was absolutely going to break something - it was that difficult to push onto the fingers. Had a few (new and old) single and double pole breakers lying around and they went on just fine, but that 3 pole was something else to fit the first time in.

I agree it's great to have a tight fit between the busbar fingers and the breaker contact - but this was crazy. We stared at things for a long time (like dumb engineers will) trying to figure out if there was some kind of reject feature we were not understanding. All the while, in the back of your brain you know the solution is to "get a bigger hammer"

All of our shops have Eaton CH panels, so I am familiar with them and had not run into this problem before.

In the end I suspect that I likely did exactly what you did to get them on. I had (4) 3 pole 30s to fit in the top spots.

MD this is exactly the case. Man I took a blade screwdriver out of my pouch and carefully worked it into the tabs a few time across, and then with a major lot of force somehow got it landed. I was also feeling the plastic was going to break. Last thought for today, I have one more to do. Was thinking maybe a wooden dowel rod and a few light taps with a hammer placed carefully. I did not care for the experience on a live panel.
You know how shutdowns are with computer gear running. Thanks for all responses.

 

[StarCat]

Many years ago installed a 100A meter main C-H panel that was manufactured in Costa Rica, & it was a lot harder to plug the breakers in compared the subpanel I installed in the house, about 19 years ago that rental caught fire (drugs or something cooking in the kitchen), & that service is still going. Eaton did do some value engineering on the buss of those panels, making them a 1 piece assembly over the prev. method of bolting the buss stabs to the vertical buss, I wonder how much of that is causing the problems?

Norcal, because I work in Industrial, I do not see the volume that Install Electricians do, and so do not encounter many situations you guys run into often. This is why the forum is quite helpful. Its interesting of late to take note of many that have been in the trade 20-30 years or more and the small circles we are locked in with respect to diversity of all that is going on. The complexity is colossal and keeps growing down the time line. With all the bad Engineering that is at large currently, many are not snapping to the fact that we need to go another direction and works towards simplicity and RELAIBILITY above all else. This is another conversation. The other major bad idea is attempting to engineer around what should be common sense and basic electrical education for the brain dead masses. This must change. Its all being done wrong, and the consequences are mounting and obvious.