Cutler Hammer Arc Fault

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eeliasson

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Roundup, MT
So I've been getting a lot of call backs lately to houses that I've wired using Cutler Hammer CH series panels with afci/gfci breakers. Some houses, my own included, have not had any issues. Others however, are a constant pain in my butt! It's not just one circuit either, it's usually multiple issues. My solution has been to test, swap breakers, and if all else fails change to a standard breaker on important circuits like the fridge. The last house I wired has me pulling my hair out. The tripping is so random that it's hard to narrow it down. One example that I found is the master bedroom circuit. There are (4) led can lights in the bedroom and (1) semi-flush mount in the hall with edison bulbs, both on the same circuit. It seems that when both lights are on for a certain amount of time it will trip the breaker on a series fault code. Either light will run by itself with no problem. In the same house I also have a problem with the living room circuit and the foyer circuit interacting with each other. Both rooms have the same LED can lights. If both rooms have the lights on and you turn the tv/entertainment system on in the living room, after about 30 seconds the living room circuit trips on series fault. If I turn the foyer breaker off though, the living room circuit will not trip. There are several switch boxes that have both circuits but they are correctly separated except for the ground wires. I could go on and on but these are just a few examples. Thinking about switching to Homeline for future projects to see if I have the same problems. Any info or advice?
 
My personal opinion would be to stop installing CH (Eaton). It seems they are much more finicky than the other leading brands.

One thing to try is to get some breakers that have the letters HAM at the end of the model number. You may have to special order them. They are made to suppress radio frequency interference from HF ham radios that could be as far as 400 feet from the panel being affected. If you find the HAM series breakers fix the problem, that isn't to say the problem is coming from a ham radio. Other devices, more and more each day, emit radio frequency interference. The breakers SHOULD come off the shelf with such filtering, but it seems they don't.

I have never heard of SqD breakers acting as bad as Eatons, and I have also heard stories of false trips from Eatons being rectified by pulling the Eaton panel and replacing it with, I believe, a SqD, which solved the problem.
 
eeliasson said:
So I've been getting a lot of call backs lately to houses that I've wired using Cutler Hammer CH series panels with afci/gfci breakers. Some houses, my own included, have not had any issues. Others however, are a constant pain in my butt! It's not just one circuit either, it's usually multiple issues. My solution has been to test, swap breakers, and if all else fails change to a standard breaker on important circuits like the fridge. The last house I wired has me pulling my hair out. The tripping is so random that it's hard to narrow it down. One example that I found is the master bedroom circuit. There are (4) led can lights in the bedroom and (1) semi-flush mount in the hall with edison bulbs, both on the same circuit. It seems that when both lights are on for a certain amount of time it will trip the breaker on a series fault code. Either light will run by itself with no problem. In the same house I also have a problem with the living room circuit and the foyer circuit interacting with each other. Both rooms have the same LED can lights. If both rooms have the lights on and you turn the tv/entertainment system on in the living room, after about 30 seconds the living room circuit trips on series fault. If I turn the foyer breaker off though, the living room circuit will not trip. There are several switch boxes that have both circuits but they are correctly separated except for the ground wires. I could go on and on but these are just a few examples. Thinking about switching to Homeline for future projects to see if I have the same problems. Any info or advice?
Click to expand...
Get out of residential wiring as much as possible;)
 
eeliasson said:
So I've been getting a lot of call backs lately to houses that I've wired using Cutler Hammer CH series panels with afci/gfci breakers. Some houses, my own included, have not had any issues. Others however, are a constant pain in my butt! It's not just one circuit either, it's usually multiple issues. My solution has been to test, swap breakers, and if all else fails change to a standard breaker on important circuits like the fridge.
Click to expand...
Why did you not install all standard breakers to begin with??? Is there a code driving your selection???
 
dionysius said:
Why did you not install all standard breakers to begin with??? Is there a code driving your selection???
Click to expand...

Um yes.......

210.12

Unless you thought he was installing only afci/gfci breakers which are only required in a few areas with reg afci everywhere else,
w/ the reg afci being "standard" in your definition?
 
Sierrasparky said:
GFCI breakers are not required as far as I can tell.
Click to expand...

:slaphead:
And I have caught my screw up....


user 100 said:
Um yes.......

210.12

Unless you thought he was installing only afci/gfci breakers which are only required in a few areas with reg afci everywhere else,
w/ the reg afci being "standard" in your definition?
Click to expand...

Should have said "afci/gfci breakers would only need to be installed where both types of protection are required"
 
Make sure that none of your (neutal /white wires) are tied into any other of the circuits. I had a issue a few years back, that was the issue.I was using SqD at the time. I make a conscience effort to not mix any of the grounded circuits ,although at times you may have more than one circuit in your device box keep them isolated.
 
A bit of info that may help is that afci breakers need to see a load of about 4 amps before they will trip. This may account for why both lights need to be on. Now it may not even be the lights causing the problem. It could be something else on the circuit that works fine but turning the lights on increases the amps so that the afci will function and trip if there is an issue.
 
TobyD said:
Make sure that none of your (neutal /white wires) are tied into any other of the circuits. I had a issue a few years back, that was the issue.I was using SqD at the time. I make a conscience effort to not mix any of the grounded circuits ,although at times you may have more than one circuit in your device box keep them isolated.
Click to expand...
Yeah that's always the first thing I check, but that's usually an instant trip as soon as the breakers turned on, not a delayed trip.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
A bit of info that may help is that afci breakers need to see a load of about 4 amps before they will trip. This may account for why both lights need to be on. Now it may not even be the lights causing the problem. It could be something else on the circuit that works fine but turning the lights on increases the amps so that the afci will function and trip if there is an issue.
Click to expand...
I don't think I've ever heard that before. Next time I'm there I'll have to put the amp clamp on and check that out.
 
user 100 said:
:slaphead:
And I have caught my screw up....




Should have said "afci/gfci breakers would only need to be installed where both types of protection are required"
Click to expand...
True, a lot of guys in my area have just started putting AFCI/GFCI breakers where ever AFCI breakers are required. There's only a few dollars difference between the two and then you only have to stock one type.
 
eeliasson said:
True, a lot of guys in my area have just started putting AFCI/GFCI breakers where ever AFCI breakers are required. There's only a few dollars difference between the two and then you only have to stock one type.
Click to expand...
A good plan, but you might change your mind if you get too many callbacks. On the other hand with some AFCI only breakers no longer having even the 30ma GF protection it is probably a lot safer than using one of those.

mobile
 
user 100 said:
:slaphead:
And I have caught my screw up....




Should have said "afci/gfci breakers would only need to be installed where both types of protection are required"
Click to expand...

The entire circuit is not generally required to be GFCI. So a dual function Breaker is not required nor recommended it is a contractor preference.

Personally since CA is now on the version of the code that requires AFCI in the kitchen now I am going to weigh the options. I am inclined to just use the regular AFCI in the panel and the GFCI locally. The reasoning is that I hear that many are removing the AFCI breaker for whatever reason after the fact. This will leave the Kitchen without GFCI protection which I never see removed only added these days.

This code change is a problem in the happening. DIY will rarely see the differences or the nuances and rarely will the proper device be installed as a replacement. It is obviously cheaper to install the dual function breaker. I don't know. It will be some time before I will be affected by the change. That is My take.
 
K8MHZ said:
My personal opinion would be to stop installing CH (Eaton). It seems they are much more finicky than the other leading brands.

One thing to try is to get some breakers that have the letters HAM at the end of the model number. You may have to special order them. They are made to suppress radio frequency interference from HF ham radios that could be as far as 400 feet from the panel being affected. If you find the HAM series breakers fix the problem, that isn't to say the problem is coming from a ham radio. Other devices, more and more each day, emit radio frequency interference. The breakers SHOULD come off the shelf with such filtering, but it seems they don't.

I have never heard of SqD breakers acting as bad as Eatons, and I have also heard stories of false trips from Eatons being rectified by pulling the Eaton panel and replacing it with, I believe, a SqD, which solved the problem.
Click to expand...

yep:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsILD0Fce1s
 
K8MHZ said:
My personal opinion would be to stop installing CH (Eaton). It seems they are much more finicky than the other leading brands.

One thing to try is to get some breakers that have the letters HAM at the end of the model number. You may have to special order them. They are made to suppress radio frequency interference from HF ham radios that could be as far as 400 feet from the panel being affected. If you find the HAM series breakers fix the problem, that isn't to say the problem is coming from a ham radio. Other devices, more and more each day, emit radio frequency interference. The breakers SHOULD come off the shelf with such filtering, but it seems they don't.

I have never heard of SqD breakers acting as bad as Eatons, and I have also heard stories of false trips from Eatons being rectified by pulling the Eaton panel and replacing it with, I believe, a SqD, which solved the problem.
Click to expand...

Are you serious? RF is getting into AFCI's and tripping them? Have to let one of my friends know, he is a ham and building a new house... 73 de W4KAV
 
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