I'm looking for any tips or ideas about cutting outlet boxes in old lathe and plaster walls.I was at work today cutting in boxes(drill a hole in each corner of the box outline and then use a drywall saw to "connect" the hole), when I was thinking , there has to be a better way. I figured the guys on this forum with all their experince, would of come up with a quick way that doesn't chip out the plaster on the sides. Cut-out tools, grinder with diamond wheel, die grinder, etc?thanks , guys......Rob
cutting boxes in lathe and plaster
- Thread starter rob
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pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: cutting boxes in lathe and plaster
Hello Rob
You have come to the right place, I am sure you will get good advice, maybe after 20 some odd years I will finally learn the 'easier' way to install such a monster.
The way I do it is to mark where the box will go after using a 'good' studfinder to get me away from pipes, studs and some of the other nonsense in the walls. Then I use the blue painters tape to outline the box, slowly drilling a small pilot hole on opposite corners. Then I poke around the hole with a thin long screwdriver and 'feel' for obstacles. Then I use a hack saw blade so as not to disturb the sheetrock too much. If the plaster is in bad shape, I will score through the top coat first.
When I am finished, I call in the finish guy to fix the mess I just made!
Good Luck, I hope we both learn a better way.
Pierre
Hello Rob
You have come to the right place, I am sure you will get good advice, maybe after 20 some odd years I will finally learn the 'easier' way to install such a monster.
The way I do it is to mark where the box will go after using a 'good' studfinder to get me away from pipes, studs and some of the other nonsense in the walls. Then I use the blue painters tape to outline the box, slowly drilling a small pilot hole on opposite corners. Then I poke around the hole with a thin long screwdriver and 'feel' for obstacles. Then I use a hack saw blade so as not to disturb the sheetrock too much. If the plaster is in bad shape, I will score through the top coat first.
When I am finished, I call in the finish guy to fix the mess I just made!
Good Luck, I hope we both learn a better way.
Pierre
flightline
Senior Member
Re: cutting boxes in lathe and plaster
Sheetrock, plaster on wire lath[in good shape],or veneer plaster on rocklath aren't so bad, but if you have old horeshair or similar plaster on wood lath, it's probably very old and the many of the paster keys are eithr gone, or too weak to survive any saw action that would mimic reciprocation. I have recently seen some mechanics shoot some drywall screws into through the plaster, into the wood lath to stabilize the area, and prevent the laths from whippinf back and forth in mid-span and breaking everything surrounding off. One guy used a Roto-Zip and a very steady hand. Anothergoy that was working on a very old and expensive house that he had to completly bring up to modern day standards, actually built a template from plywood, and then used a small trim router with a top bearing bit. He used a large quantity of carbide bits, but said they were figured into the price. Both guys made some very nice clean holes!
I would also agree with Pierre about investigation prior to cutting. 'That old measure twice cut one addage massaged to include the word "check first" .
[ July 04, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: flightline ]
Sheetrock, plaster on wire lath[in good shape],or veneer plaster on rocklath aren't so bad, but if you have old horeshair or similar plaster on wood lath, it's probably very old and the many of the paster keys are eithr gone, or too weak to survive any saw action that would mimic reciprocation. I have recently seen some mechanics shoot some drywall screws into through the plaster, into the wood lath to stabilize the area, and prevent the laths from whippinf back and forth in mid-span and breaking everything surrounding off. One guy used a Roto-Zip and a very steady hand. Anothergoy that was working on a very old and expensive house that he had to completly bring up to modern day standards, actually built a template from plywood, and then used a small trim router with a top bearing bit. He used a large quantity of carbide bits, but said they were figured into the price. Both guys made some very nice clean holes!
I would also agree with Pierre about investigation prior to cutting. 'That old measure twice cut one addage massaged to include the word "check first" .
[ July 04, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: flightline ]
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: cutting boxes in lathe and plaster
I use a Roto-Zip or a dremal rotery saw tool corded or cord-less this is the best way to go you will never go back to a jab saw again. as the cutting force is spiral and not in and out it wont knock any plaster off as you cut out the box hole and after you practice with it it's easy to operate as it is like cutting butter. just make sure you use the right bits as the spiral saw bits are good for wood but for plaster and tile the tile bit works the best get the one that comes with the circile attactment as it makes cutting in cans a breeze. and afew follow bits as you never know when you have to cut out a box the drywaller missed.
I use a Roto-Zip or a dremal rotery saw tool corded or cord-less this is the best way to go you will never go back to a jab saw again. as the cutting force is spiral and not in and out it wont knock any plaster off as you cut out the box hole and after you practice with it it's easy to operate as it is like cutting butter. just make sure you use the right bits as the spiral saw bits are good for wood but for plaster and tile the tile bit works the best get the one that comes with the circile attactment as it makes cutting in cans a breeze. and afew follow bits as you never know when you have to cut out a box the drywaller missed.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: cutting boxes in lathe and plaster
Hello Wayne
How do you deal with the dust?
Pierre
Hello Wayne
How do you deal with the dust?
Pierre
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: cutting boxes in lathe and plaster
Another way to cut the plaster is with an angle grinder. Either way a shop vac can get the dust, but it may require a second person.
Another way to cut the plaster is with an angle grinder. Either way a shop vac can get the dust, but it may require a second person.
enrique santiago
Member
- Location
- santa monica, california
Re: cutting boxes in lathe and plaster
i use a roto zip too, and they made a part you can install on the base of the bit and connect to a vacum, no dust at all......
i use a roto zip too, and they made a part you can install on the base of the bit and connect to a vacum, no dust at all......
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: cutting boxes in lathe and plaster
The way I do it is to first check to see if the location is clear of a stud. Drill a small hole in the center of the proposed cutout and use a piece of 1/8in fish tape. Bend it at a gentle 90 deg so when inserted in the hole the end will extend to where the edge of your cutout will be. Rotate it 360 deg to make sure there is nothing in the way. If there is it's real easy to patch that little hole. Sticking a small screwdriver in and wiggling it around makes the hole bigger and can chip the plaster.
To make the hole I like to use an old screwdriver and my linesmans pliers to smack it. Start at one corner and GENTLY chip away all the way around, then the center as necessary to expose the lath.
With wood lath, once the plaster is removed you go in with a jab saw and cut the lath. You only have to do vertical cuts then snap the piece out along its grain. With wire lath you use your cutters. Either way you have to be gentle so as not to knock any more plaster loose than you want.
To those who recommend rotozips and sawzalls, I think those blades will last less than one cut in some types if plaster. Then there's the dust...
The way I do it is to first check to see if the location is clear of a stud. Drill a small hole in the center of the proposed cutout and use a piece of 1/8in fish tape. Bend it at a gentle 90 deg so when inserted in the hole the end will extend to where the edge of your cutout will be. Rotate it 360 deg to make sure there is nothing in the way. If there is it's real easy to patch that little hole. Sticking a small screwdriver in and wiggling it around makes the hole bigger and can chip the plaster.
To make the hole I like to use an old screwdriver and my linesmans pliers to smack it. Start at one corner and GENTLY chip away all the way around, then the center as necessary to expose the lath.
With wood lath, once the plaster is removed you go in with a jab saw and cut the lath. You only have to do vertical cuts then snap the piece out along its grain. With wire lath you use your cutters. Either way you have to be gentle so as not to knock any more plaster loose than you want.
To those who recommend rotozips and sawzalls, I think those blades will last less than one cut in some types if plaster. Then there's the dust...
gregoryfast
Member
- Location
- Alaska
Re: cutting boxes in lathe and plaster
OK, several people have mentioned the dust. There is a very strong probabilty that this dust contains asbestos. There are very specific practices as to how you deal with asbestos. There is also mandatory
training and yearly retraining.
A respirator, disposable coveralls and rubber boots are the minimum. Air monitoring and a negative pressure room.....
You don't know asbestos is not present without testing.
I know, if you don't do the job, someone else will. I would rather run surface or cut into the baseboard than run the risk of mesothelioma.
OK, several people have mentioned the dust. There is a very strong probabilty that this dust contains asbestos. There are very specific practices as to how you deal with asbestos. There is also mandatory
training and yearly retraining.
A respirator, disposable coveralls and rubber boots are the minimum. Air monitoring and a negative pressure room.....
You don't know asbestos is not present without testing.
I know, if you don't do the job, someone else will. I would rather run surface or cut into the baseboard than run the risk of mesothelioma.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: cutting boxes in lathe and plaster
Gregory you must not do any residential work in old houses. I would go out of business real fast if I had to have asbestos inspections for every job I do. This type of plaster is not known for containing asbestos anyway.
Gregory you must not do any residential work in old houses. I would go out of business real fast if I had to have asbestos inspections for every job I do. This type of plaster is not known for containing asbestos anyway.
Re: cutting boxes in lathe and plaster
Knock 2' by 2' hole in wall. Mount bracketed 4S box with ring. Call Dan the Drywaller.
Seriously tho, as much as I would like to do that after years of working in older parts of town, I've found the best method for preventing damage and mess is as follows.
Check for obstructions with 1/4" masony bit and 12ga solid wire. Mark your hole. Carefully score plaster with utility knife. Carefully remove plaster from scored area with standard blade driver. Drill each exposed lathe 2-3 times with a smallish bit, and snip the wood between the holes with your diagonal cutters. A bit time consuming but generates little or no mess, and does not transmit vibration along the lathe and cause damage outside the working area.
-Noxx
Knock 2' by 2' hole in wall. Mount bracketed 4S box with ring. Call Dan the Drywaller.
Seriously tho, as much as I would like to do that after years of working in older parts of town, I've found the best method for preventing damage and mess is as follows.
Check for obstructions with 1/4" masony bit and 12ga solid wire. Mark your hole. Carefully score plaster with utility knife. Carefully remove plaster from scored area with standard blade driver. Drill each exposed lathe 2-3 times with a smallish bit, and snip the wood between the holes with your diagonal cutters. A bit time consuming but generates little or no mess, and does not transmit vibration along the lathe and cause damage outside the working area.
-Noxx
Re: cutting boxes in lathe and plaster
Here is the way an old electrician did it.
1. Take your knuckle and tap the wall to find the stud. (tap horizonally) it will sound solid when you are on the stud. when you get between the studs it will sound hollow. move to one side or the other of the stud and go to step 2
2. figure out how high you want the receptacle. when you have that figured out. take your trim screwdriver and with a left & right motion or with your pliers tap it or drill it through the plaster till you feel the space between the lath. (slowly go up or down till you feel the space between the lath.
3. when you have located this space slowly work your way up or down till you find the other space between the lath.
4. now that you have located one complete lath, center your Jem box over this lath vertically. mark it with a pencil. then slowly cut the center lath out on both sides almost through.then through. (if you cut one side all the way through it will make the other side hard to cut. You will probably break the plaster. that is why you do both sides not all the way through, till there is little left on each side}
5. Cut the top lath above about a quarter of and inch and then the bottom lath the same amount.
6 You now have a firm hole to put your Jem box in. It is the strongest place. Install your box hanger straps and you are in business. You have installed the box in the strongest part of the wall.
Here is the way an old electrician did it.
1. Take your knuckle and tap the wall to find the stud. (tap horizonally) it will sound solid when you are on the stud. when you get between the studs it will sound hollow. move to one side or the other of the stud and go to step 2
2. figure out how high you want the receptacle. when you have that figured out. take your trim screwdriver and with a left & right motion or with your pliers tap it or drill it through the plaster till you feel the space between the lath. (slowly go up or down till you feel the space between the lath.
3. when you have located this space slowly work your way up or down till you find the other space between the lath.
4. now that you have located one complete lath, center your Jem box over this lath vertically. mark it with a pencil. then slowly cut the center lath out on both sides almost through.then through. (if you cut one side all the way through it will make the other side hard to cut. You will probably break the plaster. that is why you do both sides not all the way through, till there is little left on each side}
5. Cut the top lath above about a quarter of and inch and then the bottom lath the same amount.
6 You now have a firm hole to put your Jem box in. It is the strongest place. Install your box hanger straps and you are in business. You have installed the box in the strongest part of the wall.
Re: cutting boxes in lathe and plaster
I like to use the roto-zip, but instead of using one bit, I do as follows.
I use the small tile bit, set just deep enough to not score the lath. After scoring the plaster I chip it away. Then I use the wood bit to cut the lath. I do it this way because I've run into jobs that have had wire screening on some walls and wood lath on others. This gives me more control. The sparks that fly when you hit metal are a little scary, might start a dust fire in the wall.
Rick
I like to use the roto-zip, but instead of using one bit, I do as follows.
I use the small tile bit, set just deep enough to not score the lath. After scoring the plaster I chip it away. Then I use the wood bit to cut the lath. I do it this way because I've run into jobs that have had wire screening on some walls and wood lath on others. This gives me more control. The sparks that fly when you hit metal are a little scary, might start a dust fire in the wall.
Rick
bill addiss
Senior Member
Re: cutting boxes in lathe and plaster
They make Sawzall blades for plaster w/wire lath. I've used them for cutting holes for recessed fixtures and it makes a good clean hole and doesn't catch and shake everything. The blades wear out real fast though.
With wood lath I try to place the outlet near a stud and make the furthest vertical (from the stud) cut first. That way the second vertical cut won't shake things up too much because it is close to the stud.
Bill
They make Sawzall blades for plaster w/wire lath. I've used them for cutting holes for recessed fixtures and it makes a good clean hole and doesn't catch and shake everything. The blades wear out real fast though.
With wood lath I try to place the outlet near a stud and make the furthest vertical (from the stud) cut first. That way the second vertical cut won't shake things up too much because it is close to the stud.
Bill
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: cutting boxes in lathe and plaster
Actually, drilling holes in the wood lath and then snipping the wood between the holes with cutters as Noxx recommends as well as centering the box on a piece of lath as Gregory recommends were both things that were taught to me a long time ago. Apparently I've gotten lazy over the years.
Actually, drilling holes in the wood lath and then snipping the wood between the holes with cutters as Noxx recommends as well as centering the box on a piece of lath as Gregory recommends were both things that were taught to me a long time ago. Apparently I've gotten lazy over the years.
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