danger of shock from gpr

[tomhanscom]

My wife and I are homeowners. Our house has been documented to be in ongoing danger from the 7200v primary wire in our front yard (about 13 feet from the slab of the house). Documentation was by spectral analyzer, and the danger is shock or electrocution from ground potential rise as moisture in the soil changes. The electricity from the 7200v wire passes directly under the slab of our home. One severe human shock has resulted in documented spinal and brain injury. Ongoing shocks to animals are also occurring. Loss of proprioception from repeated shocks affects both humans and animals.

The engineering documentation was made with Mitigator by QWEST. However, in Rio Rancho/Albuquerque NM we have been unable to find an engineering firm that is willing and able to do the paperwork necessary to communicate properly with our power company regarding this matter. This is not an issue of voltage regulation on our service wire (the only studies our power company has done). It is a grounding and safety problem related to the ac primary as moisture changes and the shock comes up out of the ground. Pre-school children walking in the street are also in danger, we are told.

Thank you very kindly for your assistance. Whomever you may recommend will have to be comfortable in court, although assistance may also help us avoid court. In any event, the safety issue affects the entire wire and neighborhood. Your website is known in Albuquerque as the place to ask the question you cannot solve elsewhere, and we need a good referral.

 

[charlie b]

I am going to allow a discussion of this issue, but it may be a brief discussion. Forum rules prohibit us from giving any assistance to one side or the other in a legal dispute. To me, it does not sound like that is the nature of your request. I think you are looking for a referral to an engineering firm willing to undertake your cause. To the extent that the discussion does not venture into legal areas, I will leave this thread open. But I reserve the right to close it at anytime without notice, if the discussion takes a turn away from the limited scope of this Forum.

Let me offer the opinion that you have been told that ?the sky is falling.? I do not believe one word of the potential dangers that have been described to you. Not one word. Shock does not ?come up out of the ground.?

I do not believe the situation is as you have described. I do not intend an unfavorable reflection on yourself. I just think you have been misled. The fact that you state that an injury has been ?documented? does nothing to convince me. I would have to see the documentation myself, in order to understand the nature of the event, and in order to ascertain whether an underground primary service conductor was a contributing cause to a personnel injury.

If you have a link to a news article or some authoritative description of the alleged problem, I would ask you to post it.

If anyone works in the Albuquerque area, and is willing to pursue a possible investigation and a possible litigation project, feel free to contact the originator of this thread by private message.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

If there is such a dangerous situation, I am surprised that you have not contacted the Consumer Protection Agency in your area...it would seem to me that the potential issue you have is just what they deal with.

 

[petersonra]

I don't buy it either. What would a spectral analyzer be used for in such a case that would prove there was danger due to the soil drying up?

I think someone may have bought some snake oil.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I have no advice for you, but I think I agree with Charlie.

I would think that if you could read 7200 volts 13 feet away from the conductors, that would be more than enough to trip the POCO's overcurrent protection.

I also find it hard to believe that the developers of the trac would give the utility company an easment right down the middle of the front yards of the development. They are usually down the rear property line or out in the public right of way.

I'm going to do some checking with our local utility and see what they think of this.

 

[kkwong]

I agree with both John and Charlie. Something just doesn't seem right. If you could provide documentation that would support what you are saying. That kind of voltage at that distance would mean something is seriously wrong with the ocpd at POCO.

 

[brian john]

I have seen utility HV cables in the front yard.

This is a utility issue, if as stated the issue is documented, and the only reason I can imagine they utilized a analyzer is for recording capabilities. Contact the utilities if necessary through a lawyer. Utilities in my area are fast to respond to any complaints. I would think this has to be from a cable issue which can be isolated and tested fairly easily.

 

[Terrynistler]

I totally agree with everyone. I can't possibly believe that a utility company wouldn't be all over this in less time then it takes to legally drive there. I work with several pocos and they respond immediately to any issues that may arise. Yes there are tons of areas that the high voltage lines are way closer then 13'. My own line is right at 11'.

IMO there must be something else going on here.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I just got off the phone with our utility provider.

She said that there is no way that she can think of that what is being described could happen. Her second comment was, that if the POCO knew about it and it was an actual condition that they would correct it as soon as possible as they could be lible for million$ of dollars in damages.

I was wrong about the easment though. With the smaller lots being built it is not uncommen for the utility transformer to be 10' or less from the front of a house and they are allowed to run primary and secondary in the same trench.

 

[tomhanscom]

response: gpr

response: gpr

What we have been told about the danger from the 7200v wire is that (when conditions are right in terms of moisture) ungrounded current passing through the soil can be large or small, and can cause shock or electrocution. We also were told the poco should be all over it, but they have not been. What we were shown with the analyzer is that readings from the 7200v primary were "loose in the ground" even away from the primary, and at 90 degrees to the primary. Additional readings on analyzer went toward our home. The sub-specialty of engineer we need to find is someone trained both in power and in phone, as "they know most about this kind of grounding problem." Sorry we are a little hard to place. Thank you folks. Tom and Gail Hanscom

 

[brian john]

I feel this is more a defective cable issue, If the local utility will not respond have a lawyer contact them.

 

[petersonra]

What we have been told about the danger from the 7200v wire is that (when conditions are right in terms of moisture) ungrounded current passing through the soil can be large or small, and can cause shock or electrocution. We also were told the poco should be all over it, but they have not been. What we were shown with the analyzer is that readings from the 7200v primary were "loose in the ground" even away from the primary, and at 90 degrees to the primary. Additional readings on analyzer went toward our home. The sub-specialty of engineer we need to find is someone trained both in power and in phone, as "they know most about this kind of grounding problem." Sorry we are a little hard to place. Thank you folks. Tom and Gail Hanscom

First off, this is NOT a grounding problem. If you have a problem with the 7200V line, it is not going to be solved by any kind of grounding.

I suppose it is possible that there is an insulation failure in the underground line, but the utility would be all over that.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Bob,

I suppose it is possible that there is an insulation failure in the underground line, but the utility would be all over that.

I wouldn't bet on that. In many cases of "stray voltage" the utility is very slow to respond...even in cases with energized pools. Given that this is a 7200 volt line, I would expect that it is an aluminum conductor with an unjacketed concentric neutral...sounds like the utility is losing or has lost the neutral on this cable forcing the neutral current to flow through the earth.
Don

 

[realolman]

Mr and Mrs Hanscom:

I am not disputing or agreeing with anything you have said, because for me it is hard to understand exactly what you ARE saying.

I understand that you are not familiar with electricity, but if you are going to explain your problem, you are going to have to express the problem in electrically acceptable and understandable terms. Seems to me that it would be terrifying to live in constant threat of being electrocuted at any moment, under conditions that are not common to "normal" shock situations. How can you live there?

Why was this "study" done in the first place? What prompted someone to set up equipment and "analyze" the results? Why can't the people who performed the study follow through on your behalf with the power company?

Could you post a copy of the report that was issued?

When you talk about "90 degrees" that almost sounds like magnetism. To talk about specific paths of current flow under your home, without the use of electrical terms or method of measurement sounds a little shaky.

You are going to have to express the problem more in electrically common terms. If you will do that, there are people here who can give you the benefit of some pretty darned good knowlege.

 

[tonyi]

If you can convince your local fire chief there's a real problem, they have the power to "motivate" a poco in a matter of minutes when all other avenues of communication have failed.

I've used this avenue. It works.

 

[kkwong]

I agree with realolman. If we are able to see the report we may be able to give you better solutions/advice then what we have given you.

Tonyi hit on another high point. the local fire authority would be able to motivate the POCO in more ways then any other avenue.

What I would do first is try and post the report, then go from there.

 

[RayS]

I am sorry to hear about the problem you are experiencing. I understand this must be troubling, and that technical nature of the problem adds to the confusion. Like the previous replies, I believe that if there was a documented problem, the poco would correct it immediately. The problem may be that the poco does not consider the measurements as being relevant to electric power safety, or that someone has sold you some snake oil. I am unsure myself what the 'spectral analyzer'' readings would be showing- I have used spectrum analyzers in electronics work, but don't know what that testing you had done was. There is a lot of disagreement as to the effect of EMI (electrical mechanical interference) on humans and animals. The only thing I can assume is that the poco considers this just an EMI/static kind of issue.

If it were me, I'd try to get some voltage readings around the yard and between the yard areas and some grounded house items (service, metal piping) and try taking this "hard" data to the customer service people. I gotta believe if you find significant voltage potentials present, they will respond without litigation. Find an experienced local electrician that does a lot of service and troubleshooting work to do this-electrical work in general is not for amateurs, and to get meaningful data will require some experience and training.

I am -guessing- that that if there is actually stray current present, that there is some neutral current flowing in the ground, which may not even be related to your house service.

 

[tomhanscom]

danger from gpr/reports

danger from gpr/reports

Thank you, folks...as I read, you are correct that formal reports are needed and we haven't gotten them yet as local electricians/engineers (almost without exception) don't want to be involved with our power company...the paperwork can be horrendous, we are told...so most of what we have learned was done privately and pro bono...and we thank the good hearts that tried...

Handwritten analzer data was given to us by QWEST with a verbal explanation, and that data is now in the hands of our attorney--so we can't post it...but, if individuals are interested in accepting work on this issue, or wish to pursue a professional interest, we can certainly refer privately to our attorney to let you see what QWEST did and said...

The data itself was recorded harmonics readings up to about 5000 Hz in a particular sequence that we were told meant an open neutral on the 7200v line/correlation to the phone entrance (a particular noise plus 1 v ac) as a second proof of that open neutral...the analyzer data showed that the same readings extended 30-40 feet up the hill away from the trench at 90 degrees (i.e. "they are from ac power") and also under our house...the explanatory words were that the readings were generalized and "loose in the ground and heading home"...

The issues that are coming up (broken insulation, a lost concentric neutral--yes the poco uses aluminum wiring) have been denied by the poco...we also know that they are "essentially naked to the substation" or without power company grounding/suppression all the way to the substation, and that the substation has had problems at least from time to time...we also know the poco relies on natural high resistance in dry sandy soil (one poco engineer said "high ohms aren't so bad--they keep all those currents from flowing") instead of grounding...another opinion was a problem on the high voltage side of the line adjacent to water, as our water in the house is also energized (we have installed quite a few dielectrics, but amperage can be read in sprinkler overflow)...lots of pieces...it is a pleasure to see the consistency that is coming as you folks speak...

Once again, my wife and I would be most pleased to make a private referral or for the purpose of examining the analyzer data, or speak more fully privately ...we just want to be very careful not to violate forum rules, as courtesy has been extended to us...Tom and Gail Hanscom

 

[realolman]

I don't want to insult the Hanscoms, and I am sure I am just demonstrating my ignorance, but there are engineers here, and people with engineering capabilities...

what kind of phrase is "loose in the ground and heading home"? What does that describe?

"(we have installed quite a few dielectrics, but amperage can be read in sprinkler overflow"... What does that mean? How much amperage?... at what frequency?... how was it measured? You can hold the leads of an oscilloscope or an electronic multimeter in your thumbs and it will "read". Does that mean there are dangerous currents in your arms?

Where would harmonics come from in a primary line? Wouldn't any kind of harmonics originate in branch circuits, and be at least attenuated by the transformers that are constructed for 60 Hz?

I'm not getting this. I don't even understand what the symptoms are that prompted this in the first place... except that there is a buried primary line in the front yard.

The POCO's representation is going to be a much better and harsher Devil's advocate than I.

I think this is a good opportunity for me to learn something here... if I'm not too dense... How about some of you learned guys 'splainin some of this.

 

[tomhanscom]

web references for gpr

web references for gpr

Hope this will help...The comments we quoted were made by engineers and/or troubleshooters to us as they talked about our home situation, so we can only pass on the quality of what was said to us...we agree that much more concrete things must be done and said...that is why we are trying to find an appropriate referral...

Listed are several websites that speak to gpr, and they are the kind of discussions we have heard as we worked on this house...I did not find the IEEE standards for grounding in sandy soil this morning, but they are near the 70 foot of ground rod presently installed on our home...regarding our home, we were not discussing gpr from lightning, but rather from voltage differential and dielectrics and capacitance play a part...this house all the way through has functioned like a commercial installation, not a home...the engineers involved were dual-trained power and phone/communications...

webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=367-1996
www.positronpower.com/files/dl1124737379.pdf
press.arrivenet.com/technology/article.php/680559.html
www.lyncole.com/s-gprs.asp
webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=367-1996
ink.aip.org/link/?IGTDE2/143/290/1

Again, what we need is someone who understands this stuff and can lead us from here...we can't do it for ourselves...Thank you...Tom and Gail Hanscom