DC vs AC voltage drop

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mbrooke

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How does voltage drop differ in a 250 volt DC circuit from a standard 250 volt sine wave AC circuit? I have good rules of thumb for voltage drop typical 120,208,240 and 277 volt homeruns but unclear if voltage drop is worse or better on DC.
 
The voltage drop will be identical for the same current when comparing a DC and an AC source at the same voltage and current
There will be a small difference in the impedance used for the same length in larger sizes, resulting from the need to consider inductance and skin effect at 60Hz.
 
The voltage drop will be identical for the same current when comparing a DC and an AC source at the same voltage and current
There will be a small difference in the impedance used for the same length in larger sizes, resulting from the need to consider inductance and skin effect at 60Hz.


So its about the same, just a hair more on AC from induction and skin effect?
 
So its about the same, just a hair more on AC from induction and skin effect?
Yes.
But be careful when using calculators, since some assume a balanced MWBC when you select, for example, AC and 120V and only figure one-conductor drop. When you select DC they use two conductor drop.
 
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With AC, power factor enters into the equation. Dropping the PF from 95% to 80% can increase the voltage drop 20%.

So for AC, the voltage drop could be considerably worse than for DC using the same voltage and amps.
 
With AC, power factor enters into the equation. Dropping the PF from 95% to 80% can increase the voltage drop 20%.

So for AC, the voltage drop could be considerably worse than for DC using the same voltage and amps.

Dropping the PF from 95% to 80% can increase the VD if the load wattage is kept constant. If you calculate VD as a function of load current, I do not see how it can change. (Somehow, I do not see Ohm's law as being sensitive to power factor, although you need to replace R with Z, the complex impedance.)
The lower power factor will result in a higher current for the same wattage, but the voltage drop (as measured across the length of the wire in question) must still be the product of the current and the mostly resistive impedance.

The Voltage Drop as measured by subtracting the amplitude of the load voltage from the amplitude of the source voltage, without respect to phasing, is another matter entirely, but I still have problem with that being greater than for a resistive load whose current has the same magnitude.
I would expect the voltage drop defined in that way to be smaller for a low power factor load than for a resistive load.
 
HVDC exists for a reason.

True. For very long distribution lines, inductance and capacitance do play an important role and skin effect cannot be neglected either.
But for the sort of residential and commercial applications where most electricians do VD calculations, it can usually be ignored.
 
Dropping the PF from 95% to 80% can increase the VD if the load wattage is kept constant. If you calculate VD as a function of load current, I do not see how it can change. (Somehow, I do not see Ohm's law as being sensitive to power factor, although you need to replace R with Z, the complex impedance.)
The lower power factor will result in a higher current for the same wattage, but the voltage drop (as measured across the length of the wire in question) must still be the product of the current and the mostly resistive impedance.

The Voltage Drop as measured by subtracting the amplitude of the load voltage from the amplitude of the source voltage, without respect to phasing, is another matter entirely, but I still have problem with that being greater than for a resistive load whose current has the same magnitude.
I would expect the voltage drop defined in that way to be smaller for a low power factor load than for a resistive load.

No, I'm not talking about keeping the wattage the same. I'm also not redefining "voltage drop" to be without respect to phasing.

My reference for my previous comment is my Square D slide calculator, which lists voltage drop "Line to Line volts drop per ampere per 100' in magnetic conduit with copper wire", and it has two rows: 80% PF and 95% PF.
(Actually, it has 4 rows - it has single phase and 3 phase.)

I can see it. Its pretty obvious that the phase of the source, dropped, and load voltages are going to have an effect when we do the phasor math and subtract the voltage drop from the source voltage.

I would expect the voltage drop defined in that way to be smaller for a low power factor load than for a resistive load.

According to my slide rule, it actually starts out that way for small wire, but for 3/0 and above lower PF has a higher voltage drop. I assume that has to do with the resistance to inductance ratio of the wire.
 
Actually, I think this has been discussed before, and someone posted an equation for voltage drop that included power factor. All the other formulas for voltage drop that don't include PF are just approximations of the complete equation that does include it.
 
Actually, I think this has been discussed before, and someone posted an equation for voltage drop that included power factor. All the other formulas for voltage drop that don't include PF are just approximations of the complete equation that does include it.
Once you introduce 3-phase, you have to allow for the fact that the *line* current can be higher for a given balanced line to line current as the PF decreases. I think that is a larger influence than inductive reactance.
 
With AC, power factor enters into the equation. Dropping the PF from 95% to 80% can increase the voltage drop 20%.

So for AC, the voltage drop could be considerably worse than for DC using the same voltage and amps.

Excellent point. That actually slid through my mind, but brushed it off.





HVDC exists for a reason.

At the high voltage, extra high voltage and ultra high voltage level the difference it profound. In fact, when dealing with underground cables, the capacitive reactance to ground is so high from the concentric voltage stress screening that it greatly limits the cable length in engineering equations. A long enough cable can literally end up taking more current just for capacitance than load current. Actual watt (real current) capacity is greatly diminished.



Even in 'short' cables, often both ends need shunt reactance to offset leading charging current since it adds an obscene amount to the network. (It gets even more complicated because loading changes the dynamic requiring the shunt reactors to be adjusted, making network operation>>:rant:) I have also seen the ground screens left floating at one end or transposed among the phases to reduce thermal constraints because of heat generated from the ground screens carrying capacitive currents.


However, with HVDC, even though the converters are a financial eye opener, cables or lines suddenly have near unlimited lengths with far more capacity. Also, from a network operations standpoint it becomes a breeze considering the AC network in between both sides of the HVDC converters does not have to be identical in terms of frequency and phase angle. You could even link a 50hz system to a 60hz no questions asked:D


Long rant but though someone might be interested.
 
Excellent point. That actually slid through my mind, but brushed it off.







At the high voltage, extra high voltage and ultra high voltage level the difference it profound. In fact, when dealing with underground cables, the capacitive reactance to ground is so high from the concentric voltage stress screening that it greatly limits the cable length in engineering equations. A long enough cable can literally end up taking more current just for capacitance than load current. Actual watt (real current) capacity is greatly diminished.



Even in 'short' cables, often both ends need shunt reactance to offset leading charging current since it adds an obscene amount to the network. (It gets even more complicated because loading changes the dynamic requiring the shunt reactors to be adjusted, making network operation>>:rant:) I have also seen the ground screens left floating at one end or transposed among the phases to reduce thermal constraints because of heat generated from the ground screens carrying capacitive currents.


However, with HVDC, even though the converters are a financial eye opener, cables or lines suddenly have near unlimited lengths with far more capacity. Also, from a network operations standpoint it becomes a breeze considering the AC network in between both sides of the HVDC converters does not have to be identical in terms of frequency and phase angle. You could even link a 50hz system to a 60hz no questions asked:D


Long rant but though someone might be interested.
I'm interested. I don't know much about phase angles. I do know we have been using AC a long time. I also know that anything that can be made better and works better wins.

DC might be a whole lot better. Everybody that thinks as such line up over here and open your wallets.
 
I'm interested. I don't know much about phase angles. I do know we have been using AC a long time. I also know that anything that can be made better and works better wins.

DC might be a whole lot better. Everybody that thinks as such line up over here and open your wallets.

Ask away:)



Basically HVDC while in its infancy solves many problems. One being that in AC systems all generators must be synchronized and all lines must be paralleled/operated in such a way power flows will not exceed the conductor temperature/sag/ ect limiting elements. Its a complex act, especially when factoring hundreds of generating stations. In HVDC you do not have to worry if the 2 or more systems you are importing/exporting power to are synchronized.
From a grid stability standpoint (think mass black outs) HVDC wins hands down.


HVDC is also far more efficient since insulators are based on the peak RMS voltage, and in DC you can energize a line at that. Skin effect also goes away and having to consider reactive elements radically changes for the better.


I have seen many and even worked on a few theoretical models where the current AC system is gradually changed over to all DC. This will probably be the future of power distribution decades from now.

It goes kind of like this: Power is generated ether as unsynchronized AC or DC (DC from fuel cells, solar, ect) that is then fed through a an "electronic transformer"; an IGBT thrysistor system where DC is changed over to high frequency mulit phase power, fed into a toridiol transformer where it steps up the voltage then passed through a rectifier that spits out smooth HVDC. Because the transformer works exactly like a switch mode power supply on a computer (low unvariable AC > rectified to DC> then inverted to high frequency AC> isolation transformer> then rectified through high reverse recover rate diodes) the actual coil can be a fraction both in size and weight of a normal 50/60HZ power transformer.


The DC is fed into a large all HVDC mesh network. Breakers are solid state or hybrids where during switching/faults triacs create an artificial "zero current crossing" that lets ordinary oil breakers interrupt the current or in the case of a solid state breakers all interruption is done via semiconducting material that changes electrical properties based on when called to do so.


These networks will be huge on storing electricity. They utilize theoretical beefed up ultra capacitors connected in parallel with the network. Something around hundreds of farads per can. During periods of abundant renewable energy, they will store excessive power that isn't being used up by the consumer. At night, when solar cells aren't producing or wind turbines aren't spinning they will back feed into the network allowing for less need on none renewable energy sources. During a generation shortage or a major unplanned loss of generation, they can also discharge back into the system without emergency load shedding/loss of stability giving grid operators enough time to start emergency generation. Emergency generation can also feed the network under any condition, something not possible in an AC system since during serve generation outage the frequency, voltage or both may drop low enough preventing any new generators from synchronizing into the network which in turn requires more load shedding until they can then generator protective relays will synchronize into a stable network. AC generators also trip off line much too easily, which can easily lead to a cascading outage.

Ultra capacitors in an analogy are like your car battery. The alternator being generation. The battery being ultra capacitors. When you shut down the engine the (alternator) stops producing power and the battery than begins to discharge. Head lights and all stay on. Start the engine and the battery starts to charge as the alternator takes over. No one losses power. Currently, we are a system with thousands of alternators that all must spin at their intended rate with no battery.


Transmission to distribution is the same deal where a small packed electronic transformer steps power down from High to medium voltage DC. Distribution to utilization is the only place where 50/60hz AC is seen once the DC is electronically converted over to AC. That of course is if we stick to AC. With electronic led drives and VFDs, we could get away with DC in buildings soon. Relaying is easier as well. 2 wire lines instead of 3. Less conductor material. Less power losses. Power flows can be controlled via diodes/triacs as apposed to reactors or phase angle regulators. Less dangerous EMF as transmission lines will be none inductive.

Cogeneration is the same deal no need to synchronize, which is more efficient as well. The control system for this is another science, but guaranteed simpler than for AC. Grid operators will have it made.


Truth is AC power sucks from a grid operations standpoint.




Of course, that is 1 out of 2 schools of thought. #2 is skipping central power all together and having all power be generated on sight via solar panels and hydrogen/natural gas fuel cells where heat is reclaimed for occupancy use.


Fascinating concepts:D






I think it has been done connecting two Japanese islands.

:lol: I was actually thinking that as I typed.
 
Most of the major (multi-state) blackouts have occurred due to phase angle. What happens is that an HV transmission line opens (due to overload, or wrongly calibrated protection relays, or -- shame -- inadequate tree trimming). When it opens, it overloads (quasi-)parallel HV transmission line(s) which also trip. Eventually you end up with one or more "islands" consisting of generation and load. It is always the case that the load and generation in each island do not exactly match. The generators in the load heavy island slow down and the phase angle slips back, while the generators in the load light island speed up and the phase angle moves forward.

Now the reclosers try to reconnect the lines and BAM the phase angles are out of synch (not to mention the voltage). This may cause additional damage ....

The restoration problem is that many generation stations can not "black-start", that is, they need outside power before they can restart from a no-power situation. Now you've got to get power to these stations, but you may not be able to carry all the load on the transmission line(s) without the station you are trying to start running.
 
With AC, power factor enters into the equation. Dropping the PF from 95% to 80% can increase the voltage drop 20%.

So for AC, the voltage drop could be considerably worse than for DC using the same voltage and amps.

Dropping power factor but keeping same watts will result in higher VA which means higher current if volts is same.

Adding power factor correction to a motor circuit near the motor would mean you still have approximately same watts consumed by the motor, but the corrected PF reduces VA on the branch circuit/feeder, which will reduce voltage drop on those conductors.

I still think VD is going to be based more on VA and a lower power factor will mean more VA are present.
 
Most of the major (multi-state) blackouts have occurred due to phase angle. What happens is that an HV transmission line opens (due to overload, or wrongly calibrated protection relays, or -- shame -- inadequate tree trimming). When it opens, it overloads (quasi-)parallel HV transmission line(s) which also trip. Eventually you end up with one or more "islands" consisting of generation and load. It is always the case that the load and generation in each island do not exactly match. The generators in the load heavy island slow down and the phase angle slips back, while the generators in the load light island speed up and the phase angle moves forward.

Now the reclosers try to reconnect the lines and BAM the phase angles are out of synch (not to mention the voltage). This may cause additional damage ....

The restoration problem is that many generation stations can not "black-start", that is, they need outside power before they can restart from a no-power situation. Now you've got to get power to these stations, but you may not be able to carry all the load on the transmission line(s) without the station you are trying to start running.



:lol::lol: That's so true its scary. Tree trimming is so bad in some pocos. In fact they were a big contributor to the August 14 black out in North America years back.

Excellent explantion:thumbsup: Doesn't frequency also play a role since lightly loaded generator speed up heavy loaded units slow down?

HVDC can actually work around loss of synchronism like this.
 
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