Dedicated circuit "recommended"

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JoeNorm

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I've got a kitchen remodel with many built-in appliances. Trash compactor, ice maker, beverage center, wine fridge, warm drawer, microwave.........

They all "recommend" a dedicated circuit. There is no budget restraint so running them is not a problem. But it does seem a bit overkill, for instance I am sure the wine fridge and beverage fridge could share a circuit? Trash compactor with ice maker? To give examples.

Any thoughts here? Thanks
 
If manufacturer requires dedicated circuit it is required to meet code requirements. The other issue is that if the appliance broke the manufacturer might not honor the warranty because it wasn’t installed according to their specs!
 
'Recommended' is not required.

The only good way to pair things up is to look at the amp specs. I agree that two drink fridges that are likely to have a spec between 1-3 amps each can likely share a circuit. Unfortunately in my experience it's pretty hard to get exact specs for such things from anything except the label on the appliance itself, so if they haven't been delivered yet...
 
This is a touchy subject for me and I have had this discussion with UL. Their position is "recommended" is not part of the listing and they or the AHJ can't require it as long as you meet code. This came up in my case as related to GFCI protection where the manuals for many appliances say "GFCI not recommended" yet in many cases GFCI protection is required by code. It is my opinion that all manuals should be required by the NRTL listing to state clearly what is recommended VS what is required to meet the manufacturer and code requirements.
That said, my preference is to have an individual branch circuit for each appliance but I realize if you are doing "production" housing you would starve with that concept.
 
texie said:
This is a touchy subject for me and I have had this discussion with UL. Their position is "recommended" is not part of the listing and they or the AHJ can't require it as long as you meet code. This came up in my case as related to GFCI protection where the manuals for many appliances say "GFCI not recommended" yet in many cases GFCI protection is required by code. It is my opinion that all manuals should be required by the NRTL listing to state clearly what is recommended VS what is required to meet the manufacturer and code requirements.
That said, my preference is to have an individual branch circuit for each appliance but I realize if you are doing "production" housing you would starve with that concept.
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If it is not in the UL Guide Information Sheet for that product, I see is as just a manufacturer's recommendation.
 
texie said:
Yes, I agree. My point is that the NRTLs don't require the manufactures to make things clear as to what is required and what is recommended.
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I had a kind of heated argument with UL in their Northbrook board room, when they were insisting that everything the manufacture has in the instructions is a 110.3(B) instruction. At that time there was a Halo light fixture, where the instructions specified the use of Crescent brand tools to install the fixture. Halo and Crescent were both owned by Cooper at the time. It took at least 5 minutes before the officials from UL would agree that maybe that instruction is a 110.3(B) instruction. They never did actually say, that day, that it was not a 110.3(B) instruction.

However UL still maintains everything in the manufacturer's instructions is reviewed by them and is 110.3(B), and they have published documents that say that.

I still don't agree with that, and my opinion is that if it is not in the Guide Information or the actual product standard, it is just a manufacturer's recommendation.
 
JoeNorm said:
I am sure the wine fridge and beverage fridge could share a circuit? Trash compactor with ice maker? To give examples.
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If mfg data doesn't call for dedicated circuit, I don't do it.

Look at the specs and you'll probably see that those under-counter appliances draw only about 2 amps each, except for a trash compactor, which draws about 6-8 amps.

When I wire a beverage center, I put ice maker and wine fridge on with the 2 countertop receptacles, one circuit for the whole thing.

If you wanted to give them great bang for the buck, you could put one countertop recep on with one under-counter appliance per circuit.

Trash compactor i usuall put on with countertop or island receptacles, with no more than 3 total per circuit
 
I've almost never heard a home owner say "Gee, I wish they never put this many circuits in." But often have heard: Gee wish I had one extra circuit for xyz.
 
micabay said:
I've almost never heard a home owner say "Gee, I wish they never put this many circuits in." But often have heard: Gee wish I had one extra circuit for xyz.
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What if putting in that many circuits resulted in the need for a larger and more expensive load center?
 
micabay said:
I've almost never heard a home owner say "Gee, I wish they never put this many circuits in." But often have heard: Gee wish I had one extra circuit for xyz.
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Before (stupid waste of money, incompetent NFPA/NEC/CMP's) afci's I used to be inclined to add more circuits, but now with each circuit costing $55 just for the breaker I am more hesitant and we'll take a closer look at what is actually needed.
 
ggunn said:
What if putting in that many circuits resulted in the need for a larger and more expensive load center?
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I wired a kitchen last year, and I was going to have quite a few circuits so I added a 24 circuit subpanel right above in a hallway.

We made a few changes to the circuiting from my original plan, and I ended up with 27 new circuits. Good thing it was an older code cycle and I didn't have to put arc fault breakers in because I wouldn't have had the space
 
James L said:
I wired a kitchen last year, and I was going to have quite a few circuits so I added a 24 circuit subpanel right above in a hallway.

We made a few changes to the circuiting from my original plan, and I ended up with 27 new circuits. Good thing it was an older code cycle and I didn't have to put arc fault breakers in because I wouldn't have had the space
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I am glad siemens is making those tandem afci breakers now but I need then for the other brands not just one for when things a changing just enough to need the afci breaker but not enough to justify a subpanel necessarily like an existing tandem breaker situation.
 
letgomywago said:
I am glad siemens is making those tandem afci breakers now but I need then for the other brands not just one for when things a changing just enough to need the afci breaker but not enough to justify a subpanel necessarily like an existing tandem breaker situation.
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I've seen them. What a job saver, right?
 
I suppose the chance of having too much load on a branch circuit could cause the OCPD to open and shut off power to something so there might be some benefit to having it on its own circuit, but beyond that I cannot see any benefit.
 
You know, now that I think about it again...
Are these gonna be on AFCIs?
That's an argument for dedicated circuits because then if something in particular (like my new microwave) likes to trip the AFCI once a month, you don't lose other stuff.
 
If the budget allows, go ahead with it. It may be overkill right now but a kitchen with that many built ins is surely going to get heavy use and be reinvented every few years. Who knows what may replace any given item? Better too many circuits than not enough. Much harder to add them later on. Personally, I would like to see required countertop circuits go from 2 to 3, or even 4. You never know where a microwave, waffle iron, griddle, air fryer or toaster oven will wind up. I have seen a coffee maker and MW trip a circuit. Some folks still iron clothes in the kitchen too.

As stated too, you haven't seen the appliances yet either. I've see a few come in that weren't as described. Odds will usually be against you on that, not in your favor. Standard issue becomes the "new improved" model. I got snagged on a drop in oven several years ago. Plan simply called for an oven circuit, so I ran #10. All I had ever seen were 30 amp. Appliance guy called me when he delivered it. Said it should be 40 amp, #8. I think it was a Bosch unit. I went and checked, took awhile to find the nameplate and it was only a paper sticker. Sure enough, 40A. I struggled a few minutes. 30A would most likely do OK forever. But a Thanksgiving dinner could get it cranked up full blast for several hours and then I'd get a frantic call on a holiday. I replaced it with #8 and a 40 amp breaker. I'm mostly inactive now, but any future circuits will be 40A.
 
jaggedben said:
You know, now that I think about it again...
Are these gonna be on AFCIs?
That's an argument for dedicated circuits because then if something in particular (like my new microwave) likes to trip the AFCI once a month, you don't lose other stuff.
Click to expand...
But if the microwave is unusable because it's tripping the breaker, it can just be unplugged and you could still use the circuit.

I wired a kitchen last Spring, and immediately had problems with a microwave drawer on a dedicated circuit tripping afci when cooking.

But in late summer started having problems with a beverage center circuit. 3 countertop receps and 2 under-counter appliances. It was easy enough to determine which appliance, Because they had just moved their coffee maker to that countertop.

I asked them to just unplug the coffee maker until I can get there in a few days. So they moved it back to where it was before, and waited until I came.

It didn't need multiple circuits at all.
 
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