Dedicated ciruit for dining room?

drive1968

Senior Member
I am confused about 210-52(3)(b) and whether the lighting and receptacles of a dining room may be served by a single 20 amp circuit. The kitchen separately meets the requirement of the two 20 amp SA circuits and the kitchen has its own 15 amp lighting circuit. Is it against the 2008 code for the dining room circuit to feed both lighting and receptacles?
 

S'mise

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
I say its a no no.

In the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A)

(B)(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance
branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no
other outlets. (lights are outlets)
 
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I say its a no no.

In the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A)

(B)(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance
branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no
other outlets. (lights are outlets)
Receptacle outlet circuit outlets shall have no other circuits, not lighting outlet circuits. I don't see how a dedicated lighting outlet violates the rule. But I do see how this violates the rule:

Is it against the 2008 code for the dining room circuit to feed both lighting and receptacles?
 

hurk27

Senior Member
I am confused about 210-52(3)(b) and whether the lighting and receptacles of a dining room may be served by a single 20 amp circuit. The kitchen separately meets the requirement of the two 20 amp SA circuits and the kitchen has its own 15 amp lighting circuit. Is it against the 2008 code for the dining room circuit to feed both lighting and receptacles?
I agree with John, and to add that your statement that the kitchen is compliant is only if the counter is served by both 20 amp circuits not just one or the other, but other wise the dinning room could be fed off one of these two circuits, but I wouldn't recommend it, as if they ever decide to use the dinning room receptacles to run crock pots or other heating appliances it wouldn't look good if breakers start tripping, the same in the kitchen, a good design will include enough circuits to prevent this, as home buyers that move up to an new home expect to leave these kind of problems behind in an older home.

As for putting the lights on a SA circuit, its not allowed as John pointed out, don't get bathroom requirments mixed up with SA or laundry circuits, bathroom circuits does allow the lights to be put on it, but only if the 20 amp circuit feeds one bathroom.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
You can have the dining room recep. on with the kitchen recep. however you would then need to AFCI the circuit. Always best to run a separate circuit to the dining area. Lights, as mentioned ,must be separate from those recep.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Ah, the good ole' dining room. Usually the least demanding room (in electrical terms), we've somehow managed to wildly over-engineer it.

It's listed as one of the areas that needs AFCI protection.

It's also listed as an area that needs to be served by a GFCI, 20-amp, SABC. Note that only a TOTAL of two SABC's are required for all of the areas served by the SABC's, and you've set the stage for every kitchen counter recep to be served by one, while the dining room is served by the other.

Since the dining room circuit is an SABC, it is not allowed for the room lighting to be on it. If you had, for example, a food warming table, those heat lamps could be plugged into the SABC.

Sure, it's "possible" that come Thanksgiving, Granny might have all the kin over, and set up coffee pots and crock pots in the dining area ..... but, really now .... isn't this the trade equivalent of wearing both suspenders and a belt?
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
It's also listed as an area that needs to be served by a GFCI, 20-amp, SABC. Note that only a TOTAL of two SABC's are required for all of the areas served by the SABC's, and you've set the stage for every kitchen counter recep to be served by one, while the dining room is served by the other.
Where is that information listed? I haven't seen any dining rooms with counter tops.
 

drive1968

Senior Member
Thanks for the clarification. I'll move the dining room lights over to the kitchen light circuit, which then has to be afci.
 

Howard Burger

Senior Member
Kitchen lights and AFCI

Kitchen lights and AFCI

In our area the AHJ has supplemented the '08 code, and regarding 210.12.B they exlcude the kitchen as requiring AFCI protection, so 'outlets' in these rooms, which include lights, don't need AFCI protection.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
In our area the AHJ has supplemented the '08 code, and regarding 210.12.B they exlcude the kitchen as requiring AFCI protection, so 'outlets' in these rooms, which include lights, don't need AFCI protection.
I believe that is the status quo for interpretation. However, the dining room lights do need AFCI or are you saying you don't in your area.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Thank you, Infinity, for the correction. GFCI protection is required only on the SABC receptacles that serve countertop or sink areas.

In checking myself, I also discovered I made another error. 210.52(B)(3) requires that receptacles installed to serve counters be supplied by no fewer than two SABC's. (As a side note, this might be an issue where there is so little open counter that only one receptacle is required. Since there's no requirement to use a 'duplex' receptacle, and it's difficult to supply a single receptacle from two circuiits .... but that's another topic, for another day :) )

Dennis, 210.52(B)(3) tells us that the SABC's cannot serve other outlets ... and 210.52(B)(1) tells us the dining room has to be served by an SABC. I don't see how you can tie the dining room into any other AFCI circuit and still comply with both of these rules.

In my review of the 2011, I also came across this gem at 210.52(A)(4): it appears that now we get to add receptacles to the toe-kicks of kitchen cabinets. Anyone else think this new section deserves its' own thread?
 
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Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
In my review of the 2011, I also came across this gem at 210.52(A)(4): it appears that now we get to add receptacles to the toe-kicks of kitchen cabinets. Anyone else think this new section deserves its' own thread?
I have always thought that and this section, IMO, is just clarification.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Disagree, I believe that this is a clarification of the rule on that a wall space that is adjacent to a countertop still needs the required receptacle.

See ROP 2-228 and 2-243
I am not so sure what the disagreement is about. I stated that I always thought this new section was a clarification of what I always thought the code required. How can you disagree with what I thought.

If the counter is a divider then IMO, it is wall space and should be treated as such.
 

jumper

Senior Member
I am not so sure what the disagreement is about. I stated that I always thought this new section was a clarification of what I always thought the code required. How can you disagree with what I thought.

If the counter is a divider then IMO, it is wall space and should be treated as such.
Than I mis-interpeted your post. I thought you were saying you think receptacles were needed in toe kicks of cabinets like Reno stated. Sorry.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Than I mis-interpeted your post. I thought you were saying you think receptacles were needed in toe kicks of cabinets like Reno stated. Sorry.
I do if the room on the opposite side was a living room, for instance. Not necessarily in the toe kick but generally that is where it would be.
 
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